Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

I have to say though, I'm not sure if I like the looks of this. Granted, in FP1 the gap between the fastest Pug and the fastest Audi was about .2 of a second, but I don't know if Audi changing the bodywork again if gonna be the fix that they need to really take the fight to Peugeot.

Peugeot has standardized on a basic areo package that's based on work that they did at Spa after the qualifying debacle, and that they have no plans to really deviate from that.

Audi, though, not counting early season testing, has been through 3 bodywork changes--their LM package, sprint package, and the new nose on the #2 pictured. Granted, that's probably not a major change as it seems to be taking advantage of the fact that the catwalks are bolt-on parts.

One big thing that I hope that Audi has--or soon will--work on is trying to improve straightline speeds. I haven't found any info about that yet, and I sort of doubt that the ACO will have that data ready, since FP2 ended a little more than an hour ago, but Peugeot has had a huge edge at times in the top-end speed department, and at least some of it seems to be down to the fact that Peugeot has a "slicker" package than Audi has, especially at Imola, where the speed gap down the straights was more than even at Le Mans.

Having said that, it seems that Audi and Peugeot are on par now in terms of top speed, with the cars hovering + or - a couple of km/h of 270. But then again, who's carrying more downforce or less drag, as aside from Pag's flyer, the laptimes are very similar from most of the sessions.

[henk4]

just for the record, Pagenaud presented a little bombshell during FP2 by lapping 2.5 seconds faster than the Audi. He was then obviously summoned back to the normal sandbagging procedures, as his next laps were more or less in line with the then Audi times. Kristensen then managed to claw about one second back. It will be an interesting qualifying session tomorrow.

[chernaudi]

And we can't forget the traditional British Easter weather deciding to rear it's head in Sept.--rain is forecast for Sat. and Sunday.

That may play into who has the edge by who has the most adaptable package. Audi may have more room to fiddle with the aero bits, but as one may well know from previous rants, I'm not so sure if one should be doing that too much.

And I do think that Audi and Peugeot have been sandbagging big time this weekend so far, with Audi maybe doing the better job of it--Rebellion got one of their cars within a second of fastest Audi/Pug combination for a while in FP1.

Both Audi and Peugeot claim to have good cars in the rain, and we'll likely get to see those theories put to the test over the next couple of days.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Both Audi and Peugeot claim to have good cars in the rain, and we'll likely get to see those theories put to the test over the next couple of days.

McNish told during this afternoon's press conference that he could not remember having driven the R18 in the rain. The Lotterer laptimes during the few rain spots at Le Mans, were also nothing to write home about, compared to what the Pugs did.
And the weather forecasts are improving slightly, going from heavy showers to light rain.

[chernaudi]

Yet an Audi PR piece or something of that nature said that he drove the R18 on a wet track at Sebring in March and the car was fine:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6706.shtml

Truth or PR fluff? We'll find out this weekend.

And the deal with Lotterer is likely skewed by the fact that he had the only Audi left by that stage of the race and had a huge lead (ie, Dr. Ullrich told him to pull the reigns back), while the #9 Pug had nothing to lose and everything to gain--the #9 wasn't racing for ILMC championship points, while the #2 Audi still was. So I'd rate LM as being inconclusive as far as who could do what in the rain aside from the fact that the Pugs ran for it because the #9 was racing for the win, not points, and at least one of the 908s was out of contention by that stage.

Though when the track had a dryish line, both the R18 and the 908s ran roughly the same times dependent on traffic.

And it wasn't a full on rain shower, either, and if I remember correctly, one of the Pugs did pit for intermediates at that stage, even though that car was probably lapped and was used as a guinea pig--a luxury that Audi didn't have.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Yet an Audi PR piece or something of that nature said that he drove the R18 on a wet track at Sebring in March and the car was fine:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6706.shtml

And the deal with Lotterer is likely skewed by the fact that he had the only Audi left by that stage of the race and had a huge lead (ie, Dr. Ullrich told him to pull the reigns back), while the #9 Pug had nothing to lose and everything to gain--the #9 wasn't racing for ILMC championship points, while the #2 Audi still was. So I'd rate LM as being inconclusive as far as who could do what in the rain aside from the fact that the Pugs ran for it because the #9 was racing for the win, not points, and at least one of the 908s was out of contention by that stage.

Though when the track had a dryish line, both the R18 and the 908s ran roughly the same times dependent on traffic.

And it wasn't a full on rain shower, either, and if I remember correctly, one of the Pugs did pit for intermediates at that stage, even though that car was probably lapped and was used as a guinea pig--a luxury that Audi didn't have.

I have a preference to believe drivers rather than Audi PR pieces....and I mentioned the few spots of rain in Le Mans. they hardly made me wet, so I do know what the circumstances were. And yes, Lotterer was driving very carefully, but the rain really stopped too early to be of real influence.
During one of the FP sessions at Imola, it was also raining heavily, and from what I heard, the Pugs were sort of superior. (I don't have first hand info, being at the Goodwood Festival of Speed)

[chernaudi]

Only thing that may hint at how good or bad the R18 is in the rain is at LM it started to rain during the last few laps of Tréluyer's last stint in the car, and he didn't really slow down. However, it was a sprinkle and he had the benefit of being on hot tires, so that very well may indicate little more than anything else.

And other than Imola, which neither you or I was at, we basically have nothing. The only reference I have is of the photos and reports, and the #2 Audi only did a few laps in the rained out practice, and there were about the same number of photos of R18s and 908s cutting the grass.

For Audi's sake, I hope they remember 2008 and build some adjustability into their cars on account of changing conditions, and for Peugeot's sake, that they learned from '08 at LM and '09 at PLM and from when they got the old 908 to work reasonably well in the wet at Spa in '10. And I also hope that they did do some actual testing in the rain or on wet tracks before this weekend.

And of course, until then, we'll have to wait for either party to issue press reports and their thoughts on the likely wet conditions that will prevail this weekend.

[johnyardley]

Hi,

I think we need to understand terminology used by ACO in terms of supercharging.
Turbocharging is known as turbo-supercharging!
This term has developed historically.
I hope this helps

John

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

i have just had a startling thought. i need to share this with the world.

for a second i thought the r18 was supercharged.
the max displacement allowed according to the regulatons for a supercharged diesel is 3.7liters. The audi is some kind of 3.7litre v6.(coincidence i think not)

The supercharger doesnt need to be cooled that much. they could mount it in between the cylinder banks.

Why would they want to run 1 turbo charger.(that would get really hot.

1 supercharger makes sense.

[MitchZ06]

ACO being French would mean they'd use the english translation of French, thus what has been said above.

Plus, these cars can run enough cooling to manage a single large turbo so the heat issue is almost non-existent.

[chernaudi]

Through out the weekend, the #1 Audi stuck with the Imola nose, while the #2 Audi ran a hybrid LM/Imola nose, with the vents in the catwalks between the front fenders and the nose replaced with a modified solid one piece LM version. Also of note is that there seemed to be very little if any difference in overall performance.

This leads me to believe that either Audi may be standardizing on molds for the 2012 version of the R18 (which due to rule changes will have modified bodywork anyways, namely with increased front fender louver area and louvers in the rear fenders, which will also be adopted by the ALMS and LMS), or that the whole nose is modular with the only "constant" part being the nose box and perhaps the front diffuser, and that everything else is detachable/interchangeable if enough parts are swapped.

This seems to be more apparent when you look at the LM vs sprint nose, and how the LM catwalk panels had to be modified to fit in the smaller mounting areas on the inboard front fenders if you look at the R18 vs R8C photos (LM spec R18) and the practice/qualifying/race photos from this weekend.

With the manufacturers' championship seeming more and more likely to be all but lost, could Audi be experimenting with ideas to one, test for 2012 to get a start on that program, or to try and win races before season's end?

PS: I still can't get over how immense the R18's diveplanes look, even the small tab ones that they've run at LM and since. For comparison sake, diveplanes on the LM and sprint noses are seemingly equally as massive and I do have to say that if Audi ever runs the twin diveplane arrangement that they tested at LM, that they'd probably give Wirth Research/HPD a run for their money in the big honking diveplane contest--even the "tab" diveplanes look huge when viewed at some angles, especially in profile and above.

[nobster]

Originally Posted by Acid09

No, edged out by Treluyer. His stuff was magic, remember that three-wide pass with the Corvette in the sandwich?

Do you mean that pass where he exceeded track limits....

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by nobster

Do you mean that pass where he exceeded track limits....

After several Pug drivers were accused of doing the same thing? And when Vettel passed Alonso during at Monza this weekend, he had two wheels in the grass. That's exceeding track limits, wasn't it? What make's Seb's deal any different, or the Pug deals, either?

And as for Audi, I don't know how much longer they can have McNish and Kristensen in the cars. They seem to really have been tripping up this year. Both wrecked cars at LM, Allan got in an accident at Silverstone, he's made more mistakes this year than I can remember from the previous ten years, and TK seems to have lost his touch as well. Is it that the old guard are starting to show their age, or is it the young guns showing them up in terms of speed that's lead to some desperation? Or is it simply that Allan and Tom aren't used to the lower powered cars? The last time that they raced cars as low on power was in the '03-'06 era, where everyone took the same power hit across the board, vs now where only the LMPs have taken the power hit, while the GTE/GT2 cars haven't been slowed in equal measure.

I'm not sure what's going on, but if they still have issues at PLM, I'd consider putting Ben and Andre in a car at Zhuhai, and why Audi hasn't tried to sign them to a contract is beyond me.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

After several Pug drivers were accused of doing the same thing? And when Vettel passed Alonso during at Monza this weekend, he had two wheels in the grass. That's exceeding track limits, wasn't it? What make's Seb's deal any different, or the Pug deals, either?

the point was that Treluyer's actions were called " magic" with particular reference to his overtaking manoeuvre of the Corvette where he obviously exceeded the track limits. So what you should have said here was that the actions of the Pug drivers or Vettel were equally magic.....rather than childishly accusing them of also violating the track limits...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Or is it simply that Allan and Tom aren't used to the lower powered cars? The last time that they raced cars as low on power was in the '03-'06 era, where everyone took the same power hit across the board, vs now where only the LMPs have taken the power hit, while the GTE/GT2 cars haven't been slowed in equal measure.

Kristensen raced in DTM from 2004 to 2009. That should count as experience with under powered cars.

[Adam43]

And experience of driving into people!

[chernaudi]

I'm wondering if the issues that Allan and Tom have had this year is due to them "losing their touch", or the R18 being an underpowered closed cockpit car racing against cars of which a majority are slower than it, or that the current LMP cars are so down on power that the speed gap between the GT cars and LMPs down the straights is non-existent? If it's the latter fact, then they're not alone--Greg Pickett only drove his team's Lola/Aston Martin at Sebring, and he said in a recent speed article that he's not just a fan of the apparent diesel advantage, but of the LMP cars being slowed down, period.

Or could it be that Allan and Tom are used to being the top dogs at Audi and now have numerous drivers at Audi Sport's disposal right now that are exerting pressure on them to keep their post as the fastest guys on the team?

Whatever the issue, the need to get it sorted, sooner rather than later, or Herr Ullrich, no matter how loyal he is to them, might have to pack them off to semi-retirment like what happened when Werner couldn't get around the R15's peculiarities. And no matter how much they want to race, Allan and Tom seem to know that they may eventually have to fall on their swords for Audi if it will benefit the whole team--that's business, and Audi Sport's business is racing. You can call that being a team player and taking one for the team, or wussing out under pressure from Audi Sport, whatever, but they can't keep racing forever, and unless they find that form that they had in the past few seasons, they may have to bow out, knowing that Audi will offer them many incentives to stick around the team even if they can't drive LMPs anymore--it seems that Audi has a good retirement package, and I were racing for them and they wanted to give me incentives to not race for them, I'd take them

I'm not saying that all is gloom and doom, but something just seems amiss with those two this year especially, and Allan isn't used to running into people/getting run into, and both aren't used to being out paced this often by their teammates.

[Mal]

I wouldn't write them off yet.

The first hour at Silverstone was some of the best racing I have watched in a long time. I was in the pit straight grandstand and both passes Allan made on Seabass had the crowd on its feet. He clearly proved he could still race, is still very quick and is great to watch.

I think the switch to a closed car may have a lot to do with it - Allan has always been the best in traffic but he has always taken risks that rely on the participation of the other competitors and even a small reduction in vision would slow his reaction to a car turning in on him.

I think he just needs to adjust his driving a little to ensure he gets through the race cleanly and in touch with the competitors - you don't win an endurance race in the first hour.

Drivers need to mature in their approach as they get older and they can often make up for losing the aggressive edge by clever and mature driving - Audi's last generation managed that admirably.

But then what do I know.......

[henk4]

just to refreshen my memory, where did Kristensen do anything stupid this year? (and for lower powered cars, he raced an Austin A95 at the Revival last year and will probably do a Lotus Cortina upcoming weekend)
As for Silverstone, he was the only one not involved in any mishap. (Bernard spun, Fassler damaged the car and Allan did his own thing)

[porsche91722]

There is no way that the McNish, Kristensen (and Capello) combo can be written off just yet, however they are now the old guys in the Audi team. A pretty awesome old guy lineup that could still have a LM24 win left in them, before the curtain comes down on their Audi careers. I still think that lack of actual racing has taken the edge out of these guys. It wasn't that long ago that they had regular commitments in ALMS, LMS, DTM etc. which coincidentally was when they were driving more consistently than they are now.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

There is no way that the McNish, Kristensen (and Capello) combo can be written off just yet, however they are now the old guys in the Audi team. A pretty awesome old guy lineup that could still have a LM24 win left in them, before the curtain comes down on their Audi careers. I still think that lack of actual racing has taken the edge out of these guys. It wasn't that long ago that they had regular commitments in ALMS, LMS, DTM etc. which coincidentally was when they were driving more consistently than they are now.

For Capello it was intended that he would have his last drive for Audi at Le Mans this year. Events worked out differently though, so he may get a PLM ride, but being there with only 2 cars, I suspect that Audi will not be so generous, because they really want to win.

[chernaudi]

And that's another deal--I think that the best years that Allan, Tom, and Dindo had were when they had more regular driving commitments. Since Audi has pulled out of the ALMS and LMS, those guys have done less racing than in the past, and that may've taken the edge out of them this year--Allan's had more spins and collisions this year than in most of the previous decade and has had issues that he normally doesn't have, and Tom has seemed to be off the pace as well, and at LM he spun and wrecked the car trying to win pole--again, a mistake that we just don't expect Tom to make and has rarely made in the past.

I also think that the closed cockpit is getting to them. I know that they, especially Allan, have tried to downplay it as they've all had closed LMP experience in the past and they know of the advantages, but the Pug drivers had many accidents partly on account of the closed cockpit on both 908 variants--namely Lamy at Spa and Montangy at Silverstone--and Franck has as much experience in LMPs as about anyone out there now, and he still occasionally runs into people, or, like Allan, gets in compromising simulations where they more oft than not come to grief.

Allan said after the LM accident that it hasn't changed his driving style, but maybe he should alter 1 or 2 things and try them out to see if it helps him in the closed car, because as he's said, you're never too old to learn in this business because the technology on these cars is advancing so fast.

Also, as is known now, Audi will have new build cars for next year, mostly to incorporate areo changes as a result of rules adjustments and the alleged hybrid system that they'll have. Does one think that Audi may also try and alter the windshiled and greenhouse on the R18 to give better visibility? That could be the issue with Allan and Tom--Allan making moves that worked in an open car that are more dicey in a closed car, and Tom being more cautious because of the lack of visibility? After all, the hybrid R18 might not actually be called the R18 to distinguish it from the normal diesel car, so why not make minor changes to deal with some of the issues that the drivers may be having, thought it seems that the younger drivers have largely taken to the R18, for better or worse.

[henk4]

Montagny clipped a car BEHIND him after he had overtaken it. Nothing to do with the closed cockpit, he just went back to his line a little too early.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And that's another deal--I think that the best years that Allan, Tom, and Dindo had were when they had more regular driving commitments. Since Audi has pulled out of the ALMS and LMS, those guys have done less racing than in the past, and that may've taken the edge out of them this year--Allan's had more spins and collisions this year than in most of the previous decade and has had issues that he normally doesn't have, and Tom has seemed to be off the pace as well, and at LM he spun and wrecked the car trying to win pole--again, a mistake that we just don't expect Tom to make and has rarely made in the past.

I also think that the closed cockpit is getting to them. I know that they, especially Allan, have tried to downplay it as they've all had closed LMP experience in the past and they know of the advantages, but the Pug drivers had many accidents partly on account of the closed cockpit on both 908 variants--namely Lamy at Spa and Montangy at Silverstone--and Franck has as much experience in LMPs as about anyone out there now, and he still occasionally runs into people, or, like Allan, gets in compromising simulations where they more oft than not come to grief.

Allan said after the LM accident that it hasn't changed his driving style, but maybe he should alter 1 or 2 things and try them out to see if it helps him in the closed car, because as he's said, you're never too old to learn in this business because the technology on these cars is advancing so fast.

Also, as is known now, Audi will have new build cars for next year, mostly to incorporate areo changes as a result of rules adjustments and the alleged hybrid system that they'll have. Does one think that Audi may also try and alter the windshiled and greenhouse on the R18 to give better visibility? That could be the issue with Allan and Tom--Allan making moves that worked in an open car that are more dicey in a closed car, and Tom being more cautious because of the lack of visibility? After all, the hybrid R18 might not actually be called the R18 to distinguish it from the normal diesel car, so why not make minor changes to deal with some of the issues that the drivers may be having, thought it seems that the younger drivers have largely taken to the R18, for better or worse.

You are doing a lot of guessing but without really checking it up.
The Porsche GT1 and Bentley LMP (Allans and Toms last open LM cars) both had worse visibility than the R18.
Tom is VERY adaptive when it comes to new cars, anyone who has followed his career now this.
Tom and Allan has shown that they still are the fastest guys out there (just see Le Mans), unfortunately bad luck has been following them, and just not given them the break they need to win.
And by using our sense of logic, the diesel engine should be to blame for Tom's lack in victories, as Tom has only won 1 out of 6 Diesel Le Mans victories, compared to 7 out of 9 victories in Petrol Le Mans.

With that said, there is NO WAY Tom and Allan are losing their Le Mans seats unless its their own choice! Dr. Ullrich has said several times than Tom K has a seat at Audi as long as he want to. If Tom and Allan wasn't going to Le Mans with Audi, then they would sit in a Peugeot, Toyota (Tom and Allan still has connections there) or most likely Porsche!
So again, there is NO WAY Tom and Allan are losing their Le Mans seats unless its their own choice.

We have discussed this before, and came to the same conclusion, so please let it rest!

[Mal]

The problem with the R18 is that the drivers sit so low and the new front wheels are so large that the wheel-arches obscure much of the quarter vision. So it is not just the cockpit that needs to be altered.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Mal

The problem with the R18 is that the drivers sit so low and the new front wheels are so large that the wheel-arches obscure much of the quarter vision. So it is not just the cockpit that needs to be altered.

I completely agree , and thats exactly what I mentioned before about the McNish Le Mans crash . Those large front tyres should be banned as they inpare sideways vision . Everybody laughed when I brought it up before ..... It cant do anything else but that .