Was there a chop at the start?

ttc · 22 Jul 2002, 15:10 (Ref:339718)

Or does it not count as a chop if not executed by TGF?

Will we no longer hear any complain re the starting chop maneuovre from now on?

**Adam43** · 22 Jul 2002, 15:21 (Ref:339725)

No. It wasn't a chop.

A chop is when you wait until the other car is alongside (i.e leave it very late so the other driver has to get out of the throttle or swerve drastically off line - IMO). No one had to do either of these due to Montoya defending into the first corner.

While we are at it - most of Michael's starts aren't chops.

I can feel this is going to be a fun thread.

neilap · 22 Jul 2002, 15:37 (Ref:339735)

JPM adopted that attitude since no one penalized MS for doing it. One can call it a chop but as F1 sees it, its perfectly legal.

ttc · 22 Jul 2002, 15:49 (Ref:339746)

So do we have a consensus that such a move is LEGAL?

Inigo Montoya · 22 Jul 2002, 16:09 (Ref:339763)

Of course its legal - always has been. Remember the "one change in direction" discussions with the Doc? Its just that now that JPM has had a few poles and had a chance to do it, everyone says its ok.

**Adam43** · 22 Jul 2002, 17:44 (Ref:339842)

It has always been legal, because otherwise drivers would have been punished for it. However, if I may, we could have a conversation to discuss the merits of it's legality.

It is not as simple a situation as is being made out here. And I feel decent discussion about it should be done without trying to bad mouth Michael or Montoya or anyone else (or trying to prove a point to either sets of their fans).

I think the move should only be considered bad if it is made very late (like I said above) and forces the other driver to take serious avoiding action (which they may not be able to achieve).

There have been instances when the chop has been done very late and forced other the other driver off the track or to lift/brake suddenly. This is creating a very dangerous situation (especially at the start of a GP) and IMO isn't very sporting.

Moving at the start to cover a line is fair enough as long as when/if the other driver then chooses to then take the other line it isn't blocked again (but then this case would be two blocking moves).

However my main problem with 'the chop', even if it is just one move, is that it is done so late. I would not class something that is done early and does not force another driver to take avoiding action a chop.

Inigo Montoya · 22 Jul 2002, 18:06 (Ref:339866)

Right, I am not welcome in this thread. I understand.

neilap · 22 Jul 2002, 18:20 (Ref:339877)

Michael has used this stragegy to force other drivers wide. When JPM did it he was already ahead. There is a big difference. He even did it to little brother who promptly lifted and moved out of his brothers was.

ttc · 22 Jul 2002, 18:29 (Ref:339884)

Adam, does backing off/braking constitute "taking avoiding action"?

Reason I started this thread is because when the shoe is on the other foot, somehow it all seems "perfectly" legal, whereas when it's on the other, it's "cheating" and "dangerous driving".

You should probably also have noted how aggressive Montoya had defended his position in the last two GP. Had Montoya been leading Montoya (no, that's not a mistake), we'll probably have seen more of the damaged front wing incidents.

Yet it's strangely quiet that not a word was mentioned.

If the current consensus is that such moves are LEGAL, let's hope that next time when Montoya is again at the receiving end, that folks like you will come on out and reinforce such consensus on "irrational" fans.

**Peter Mallett** · 22 Jul 2002, 18:38 (Ref:339888)

Um,

I've always said it was ok. But then people accuse me of bias against JPM. What he did on Sunday was no different to what Mickey does. I will say though that its the first time I've seen JPM do it properly. There's hope for the boy yet.

**Adam43** · 22 Jul 2002, 18:55 (Ref:339903)

Fair point, I think a sense of perspective is what we crave. Or at least consideration that each time the situation may be different.

My main point is that Montoya's move in Magny Cours should not be considered a chop, the same as when Michael moves across on his line at the start.

As for Montoya's defending in the last few GP, again it has been hard certainly, but the other guy has always had room (with the notable exception of DC - although this wasn't intentional). And indeed Michael did well to challenge, but not get carried away. Afterall he got past at Silverstone and Nurburgring. OK Silverstone was easy due to the tyres, but Nurburgring was fantastic. Montoya squeezed him, certainly, but Michael didn't have to lift or drive off the track. He had enough room (just).

It was great stuff.

And to be fair Michael generally behaves in the same way too. You are right. And it has come to a point where Michael is accused wrongly everytime just because it was him.

I will give an example of what I consider a chop, one that didn't happen at the start and one which also involves one move only. It also involves Michael. I am not picking on Michael as such, but I think it is one of the best examples of the chop (IMO). Spa 2000. As we all know Mika pulled out to overtake Michael and Michael made one (very late) move and it could have resulted in a very serious accident. It is this that should be irradicated from F1, not the pole man chosing the inside or outside line in the first few metres.

However what I most want is Michael and Montoya to continue to battle hard like they have been doing all year (hopefully with Montoya having a slightly better car!). Sometimes it will result in accidents like Malaysia and Brasil, but as long as it is hard and fair.

I do consider Brasil to be boarderline in the lateness stakes, but when you race hard sometimes you will make a mistake.

As for Montoya v Montoya that's almost as good as the Montoya v Michael we have now

Mr V · 22 Jul 2002, 20:45 (Ref:340025)

Being the massive JPM fan that i am, i've got to say that i'm disappointed that he has adopted the chop at the start, i don't like seeing him do it just as much as i don't like seeing TGF doing it, however, the FIA obviously doesn't see anything wrong with either driver doing it.

SILVERS95 · 22 Jul 2002, 20:56 (Ref:340050)

it wasnt a strong chop though was it . He didnt nearly put him in the wall or make him really lift .

enemy-ace · 22 Jul 2002, 22:33 (Ref:340157)

Keke Rosberg:
"To Gilles, racing truly was a sport, which is why he would never chop you. Something like that he'd look on with contempt. You didn't have to be a good driver to do that, let alone a great one. Anyone could do that. Gilles was the hardest ******* I ever raced against, but completely fair. If you'd beaten him to a corner, he accepted it and gave you room. Then he'd be right back at you at the next one ! "

This pretty much echoes my sentiments. But I personally gave up arguing about it a long time ago as it seemed a rather futile effort.

Jordi · 22 Jul 2002, 22:58 (Ref:340166)

shouldn't be legal...

f1manoz · 23 Jul 2002, 01:38 (Ref:340254)

Frankly, no-one on the grid manages to leave in a straight line anymore. JPM and the Schu are as bad as each other.

Dirty driving has become part-and-parcel of driving in F1.

Champ69 · 23 Jul 2002, 01:54 (Ref:340259)

My view is that chopping is not dirty.

Montoya had to jink infront of schumi as he knew that was the only way he had a chance of winning, as the ferrari is so quick.

I have no problem with jinking at the start.

Jukebox · 23 Jul 2002, 02:24 (Ref:340265)

I suggest that anyone that is not clear of the swerving / chop ruling right after the lights go off get a copy of the FIA ruling.

It's not against the rule to change direction once.

This part of the rule had been discussed and debated for more than a month after the Malaysian GP and as Inigo has pionted out at the time when the greatly missed Doc Austin was around.

I'm just glad that we the Michael fans don't make a big fuss about it when Montoya did it to him

Mania · 23 Jul 2002, 05:36 (Ref:340305)

Ofcourse it was a chaop - and it isent the first time he's used it either and it wont be the last. Some people who have already posted on this thread will no doubt whine when Michael does the same thing - as they have in the past - but then thats some clear bias that its not even worth commenting on..

At the end of the day, the FIA has ruled the so-called "chop" as legal so I dont have a problem with it. Nobody on pole will willingly let someone get an easy run on them and the chop itself serves as a good way to force the driver behind to either change line or lift - both of which can result in the driver in front maintaining his position.

However, thats not always the case either - Mika Hakkinen passed Michael Schumacher at the start on quite a few occasions despite Michael trying to keep him back - so if you make a better start you can still get ahead, regardless of whether the driver in front goes for the chop or not.

f1manoz · 23 Jul 2002, 07:29 (Ref:340335)

And Mika never complained about it either. If he thought Schu had pushed too far, he'd simply walk over, have a small chat and that would be that.

Geez I miss that gentlemanly aspect......

DNQ · 23 Jul 2002, 08:22 (Ref:340363)

Magny Cours lends itself to making race starts look very 'choppish' cause of the funnel nature of the first turn - it's a high speed left hander, so all the cars are sweeping accross.

Red · 23 Jul 2002, 08:37 (Ref:340372)

That was the second move. The first one was a genuine chop. Nothing wrong with it by the way.

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2002, 09:31 (Ref:340416)

I think we all realise that chopping isn't illegal. The whole one move thing and all that.

My main problem is with the lateness of any chop. I'd rather two moves was allowed than one late move. Otherwise you can just wait until the other driver is alongside (or nearly alongside) and then chop. Causing him to take avoiding action and lose out. I question whether this should be legal.

Anyway IMO it's not really a chop if you are nowhere near the guy behind.

Valve Bounce · 23 Jul 2002, 09:31 (Ref:340417)

WREX, if this isn't a flame bait thread, then I don't know what is.

Valve [img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

ttc · 23 Jul 2002, 12:08 (Ref:340583)

Flame bait?

I don't think so. Or at least that's NOT my intention.

I'd just like the folks to FINALLY come to a consensus that SUCH maneouvre is indeed LEGAL, NO MATTER who executes it or is at the receiving end.

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