[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

No, the mechanical grip in those years was severely lacking because of the tyres. They even looked hard, as if made of the same construction as you'd find on a cheap toy cars plastic tyres. Some drivers could not adapt to them at all as they had no feel and finding the limit was difficult. Remember, this was still the early days of grooved tyres (and narrow chassis) and, with no competition after Goodyear left, Bridgestone opted for safety first. The irony being that the tyres were actually quite dangerous to drive on, with the cars snapping out of control seemingly for no real reason sometimes.

It was only once Michelin returned that grip levels shot up and laptimes tumbled. The cars became easier to race, although this was soon negated by the vast improvements brought about by increasingly sophisticated aerodynamic development.

But trust me, 1999 and 2000 were truly horrendous, barring the noise the McLaren's made. I still look back with sadness at the 90 minutes of my life I lost watching the '99 Spanish GP.

I'm not saying your points aren't valid or anything, because I can't remember everything about those seasons. I still don't subscribe to your view. I'm not saying you have to make me, because we could go round in circles.

- Even if the tyres provided absolutely no grip, guys were still stuck in the dirty air. Now that you say it, I can recall thinking 96 wasn't particularly thrilling in this regard. In fact, off the top of my head, except for 97, all the 94-98 seasons we're terrible regarding guys going for it. Degrees varied, but pointing out 99/00 doesn't make sense to me. They were mainly the same. Also, it may've been only one race, but the 00 French was one of the best races in bone dry conditions from the 94-98 peroid. One of the few races not dictated by fuel loads, pit "strategy".

- "They even looked hard". Nup, it may've been to you. It's a bit much for me go along with this, particularly since I watched the races too.

- "with the cars snapping out of control seemingly for no real reason sometimes". With this line, you could be describing aquaplaning.

- "But trust me, 1999 and 2000 were truly horrendous". I was watching them. Except for 97, they weren't any different to seasons either side.

- " I still look back with sadness at the 90 minutes of my life I lost watching the '99 Spanish GP". From my pov, I don't get the singling out the 99 Spanish GP. The 98/99/00 were all the same race to me. I still wouldn't blame them on tyres. One of the reasons why Catalunya has been bad is because it's all long circumference corners, aero/downforce loves that!

[Bononi]

Well, he did waste his time !

[Knowlesy]

Are aquaplane conditions good for racing then?

99/00 are particular because it was the first two years of four grooved tyres all round and it coincided with a sole tyre supplier, thus leading to overly hard, conservative tyres.

And you also singled these two years out for incredible praise which is why I picked up on it in the first place. Just saying that, whilst the tense title fights added excitement, literally nothing happened on the track of any real interest.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Are aquaplane conditions good for racing then?

99/00 are particular because it was the first two years of four grooved tyres all round and it coincided with a sole tyre supplier, thus leading to overly hard, conservative tyres.

And you also singled these two years out for incredible praise which is why I picked up on it in the first place. Just saying that, whilst the tense title fights added excitement, literally nothing happened on the track of any real interest.

I totally agree. 1999 and 2000 were bad years for wheel to wheel racing. 2001 was a good year, mainly due to the softer tyres and differing grip levels throughout the race that Michelin and Bridgestone had.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Are aquaplane conditions good for racing then?

No, I suppose not.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

99/00 are particular because it was the first two years of four grooved tyres all round and it coincided with a sole tyre supplier, thus leading to overly hard, conservative tyres.

I just don't remember it being worse than other years. Thinking about it now. In theory, hard tyres, along with the grooves, does make it more difficult than it needs to be. I suspect Bridgestone would've made a different type of tyre had gp cars been big ffords and the grooves had never been introduced.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

And you also singled these two years out for incredible praise which is why I picked up on it in the first place. Just saying that, whilst the tense title fights added excitement, literally nothing happened on the track of any real interest.

I was thinking about the title fights about those years. Despite all the factors against it, the 2000 French gp was one of the best, legit on-track races since I'd been following F1. But that was only one race of course.

[JeremySmith]

I heard an interesting interview with Paul Hembrey last night, basically saying that the tires were just not working in testing because of low temps which we know of course, but he went on to say that when the ambient temp is up around 15C they will perform as expected..

[JeremySmith]

So what do we think, I know it's just the first race but those super softs were falling apart..

Tyres are playing too much of a factor, and getting in the way of the racing IMHO..

[andy666]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So what do we think, I know it's just the first race but those super softs were falling apart..

Tyres are playing too much of a factor, and getting in the way of the racing IMHO..

I watched the Australian round of the 2013 Pirelli Tyre Championship this morning and for me their was just too much talk about TYRES ! Enjoyed the racing though .

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So what do we think, I know it's just the first race but those super softs were falling apart..

Tyres are playing too much of a factor, and getting in the way of the racing IMHO..

Same story...

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So what do we think, I know it's just the first race but those super softs were falling apart..

Tyres are playing too much of a factor, and getting in the way of the racing IMHO..

That was what they wanted and it is going to be that way all year

From what I can see, the cars with the great race package and kind to their tyres (Lotus & Ferrari) are going to fight it out this year. Those cars had the best race package much of 2012 too but Kimi was in the first year of comeback and not quite up to it - now he is driving better than I have ever seen him, fast, consistent AND careful.
The tyres were inconsistent last year, good some tracks, bad on others. The RBRs greatest strength (downforce) is going to work against it even more with these deliberately degrading tyres - they will still be the fastest "one lap" car at many tracks but they are going to have to rethink the aero or continue to fall back on race day.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So what do we think, I know it's just the first race but those super softs were falling apart..

Tyres are playing too much of a factor, and getting in the way of the racing IMHO..

The mediums were what we expected, the softs fell apart after only a handful of laps, remember the cauliflower quote by Verne?

[Pingguest]

The current situation is quite ironic. Mid-race refuelling was banned to get rid of pit stops strategies and force drivers to pass on-track. Tyres were standardized to make them banal and without any influence to the race. Now Formula 1 ended up with races being decided by pit stop strategies and tyres being a key factor.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The current situation is quite ironic. Mid-race refuelling was banned to get rid of pit stops strategies and force drivers to pass on-track. Tyres were standardized to make them banal and without any influence to the race. Now Formula 1 ended up with races being decided by pit stop strategies and tyres being a key factor.

Hardly the same thing though.

Commentry excerpts from a race with fuel stops:
"And Micheal has to stop on lap 32 but David will be in on lap 30, that means Michael will get the undercut and will win the race, now how do I keep the tv audience watching for the next thirty laps?"

and for a race with, shall we say "interesting", tyres:
"Is he going to go flat out and make another stop or is he trying to take this set to the checkered flag?"
"lap time's are dropping off now, is he paying for those first two laps out of the pits when he built the gap that he is now losing"
"and fastest lap on lap 59 and we thought his tyres were finished."

The fuel stop era was the most tedious and predictable in the entire history of formula I cannot understand how anyone can compare that to what we have now, you can call it contrived but at least it is occasionally unpredictable and makes it interesting rather than trivial to read a race as it progresses.

The tyre situation also makes it much more important to pass on track because it leads to the relative pace of the cars changing during the race drivers are much more likely to be behind a slower car and it is more important than ever to pass it.

[Armco Bender]

Pirelli tyres good for 8 laps......well I wont be buying any Pirellis for my tractor anytime soon,hardly be able to plough a field before the're down to the canvas.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Pirelli tyres good for 8 laps......well I wont be buying any Pirellis for my tractor anytime soon,hardly be able to plough a field before the're down to the canvas.

So you will go for the good old Bridgestones that last forever.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Pirelli tyres good for 8 laps......well I wont be buying any Pirellis for my tractor anytime soon,hardly be able to plough a field before the're down to the canvas.

I'm sure that's not the kind of repercussion Pirelli is expecting for their commercial side...

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Pirelli tyres good for 8 laps......

So far for a 'green' Formula 1, that is ecologically sound.

[Marbot]

You could send them all out on hard tyres and watch Kimi's 'ever so light on its tyres, whilst also being very fast on them' Lotus win every race.

And exactly how hard do these 'other' tyres need to be? Do they need to degrade a little bit? Do they need to degrade not as much as the Pirelli's? Or do they need to be so resistant to wear that they can, and must last, for more than one race?

Whichever one you chose it would still be a choice for a tyre that favoured some cars and not others.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

So far for a 'green' Formula 1, that is ecologically sound.

Would you prefer Michelin's solution of making one set of tyres to last as long as possible, so as not to incur a heavy penalty for changing those tyres?

By "as long as possible" I'm talking 4 or 5 races, or even longer.

And you think that tyres are talked about too much now!

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Pirelli tyres good for 8 laps......well I wont be buying any Pirellis for my tractor anytime soon,hardly be able to plough a field before the're down to the canvas.

my P-Zeros have lasted for over 30,000 Miles

[Marbot]

The Australian GP was also a relatively 'cold' GP, as were the Barcelona tests. The Malaysian GP will probably be more indicative of actual tyre wear.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Pirelli brought only the hard compound tyre to every race, people would then start to complain about how predictable the racing had become. After just a few laps, we would start to wonder if the 'ever so light on its tyres, whilst also being very quick on them' Lotus of Raikkonen's, could fall prey to an engine failure or driver error. Neither would seem likely.

In fact, the last few races of the 2012 season were indicative of Pirelli's rather conservative tyre options for those races.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Hardly the same thing though.

Commentry excerpts from a race with fuel stops:
"And Micheal has to stop on lap 32 but David will be in on lap 30, that means Michael will get the undercut and will win the race, now how do I keep the tv audience watching for the next thirty laps?"

and for a race with, shall we say "interesting", tyres:
"Is he going to go flat out and make another stop or is he trying to take this set to the checkered flag?"
"lap time's are dropping off now, is he paying for those first two laps out of the pits when he built the gap that he is now losing"
"and fastest lap on lap 59 and we thought his tyres were finished."

The fuel stop era was the most tedious and predictable in the entire history of formula I cannot understand how anyone can compare that to what we have now, you can call it contrived but at least it is occasionally unpredictable and makes it interesting rather than trivial to read a race as it progresses.

The tyre situation also makes it much more important to pass on track because it leads to the relative pace of the cars changing during the race drivers are much more likely to be behind a slower car and it is more important than ever to pass it.

One cannot deny that during the pre-2010 'refuelling era' race were ocassionally unpredictable as well. Teams changed their refuelling strategy during the race and had to take tactical decisions too, as they had to react on their opponents and unexpected circumstances, such as changing weather and the Safety Car being deployed.
Both during the so-called refuelling era as wel as during the 2010 season drivers on-track passing was necessary to prevent the race strategy being ruined. In this case the phenomenon called the 'Trully train' worth mentioning.

[chillibowl]

for me the problems with the tires still stems from qualifying and the possibility that one of the better strategies still seems to allow for a better race day if you intentionally dont try to make it into Q3.

of course its a strategy and a good one for mid field teams but its still not a race winning strategy (just one which may yield an outside shot at a podium) and it just feeds into institutionalizing the concept of not doing your best is actually the best thing to do. thats not sporting imo.

a simple solution would be to allowall teams to start the race on the compound or tire of their choice. keep their weekend allotments the same (i would even go so far as allowing Q3 drivers to get an extra set as compensation for doing well) but i dont like how Q3 drivers have to start with the same tires they qualified on.

[Knowlesy]

The races were great after the teams got a handle on the tyres last year. Austin was the race of the year.

[Dayzer]

Pirelli confirming that they will be using the new P Zero Orange hard compound, things may get interesting in Malaysia.