’09 ALMS Season Finale • Round 10 • Laguna Seca • Oct. 6th – 11th

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Because you can see the front end of the 45 wash out to the right BEFORE Jan spins, that would only happen if Jan was leaning on Jeorg.

you can argue Jan drove a bit "emotional" and a little rough, but the 'vette had it's driver side door wthin inches (millimeters) of touching the pit wall because of the 45, when Jan finally "turned right", as is claimed.

ALL was clean, including the 45 pushing the 3 into the dirt at the hairpin and the chrome horn by Jan. all of this and the first 2 bangs on the 'vette going up the frontstretch were clean...i'll chaulk it up to a brilliant late race battle.

the third and final shot by Bergie was dangerous, unsafe, and dirty. Jan's only fault was getting up beside and past him for a second time in the last 10 minutes of the race.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

ALL was clean, including the 45 pushing the 3 into the dirt at the hairpin and the chrome horn by Jan. all of this and the first 2 bangs on the 'vette going up the frontstretch were clean and i'll chaulk it up to a brilliant late race battle; the third and final shot by Bergie was dangerous, unsafe, and dirty. Jan's only fault was getting up beside and past him for a second time in the last 10 minutes of the race.

Yep.



L.P.

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Yep.



L.P.

So now driving straight into the back of someone in mid-corner in a effort to loosen them up is considered clean racing? If so then I want no part of it.

And there is absolutely no excuse for cutting into pit exit like he did. That is expressly forbidden and should have been a stop and hold penalty under the rules. That is easily one of the dumbest things I have ever seen from a professional driver.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

the third and final shot by Bergie was dangerous, unsafe, and dirty. Jan's only fault was getting up beside and past him for a second time in the last 10 minutes of the race.

3rd and final shot? Joerg pushed Jan up to the wall(but never into it) and held his line, Jan got his nose ahead and for some dumb reason decided to pull across to the right and spun himself out.

Reminds me of the Dyson Spyder incident at Lime Rock last year, pulled across the nose of another car before he was clear and spun himself into the barriers aswell.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by whitec21

So now driving straight into the back of someone in mid-corner in a effort to loosen them up is considered clean racing? If so then I want no part of it .

it's as clean as losing the traction of your car and driving someone else into the dirt as the 45 did to the 3 earlier in the lap. different approach in a different corner, but the exact same result...a competiter losing an advantage as the 'vette had the prefered line going into 3. punish one, punish the other...

Originally Posted by whitec21

And there is absolutely no excuse for cutting into pit exit like he did. That is expressly forbidden and should have been a stop and hold penalty under the rules. That is easily one of the dumbest things I have ever seen from a professional driver.

i honestly don't know what the rules are; if that is a "forbidden zone" for drivers, then so be it. but come on....dumbest ever by a PRO driver? seriously? there was blacktop there, and no car was leaving the pits so all is fair, IMO.

however, the stewards disagree with me (what a stretch that is), it was deemed illegal and he was punished; correct form of punishment or not, it was issued and dealt with and has very little to do with an extremely dangerous punt, one of the worst i've ever seen, in the one of the worst place possible.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

it's as clean as losing the traction of your car and driving someone else into the dirt as the 45 did to the 3 earlier in the lap. different approach in a different corner, but the exact same result...a competiter losing an advantage as the 'vette had the prefered line going into 3. punish one, punish the other...

So then punish the 3 for putting Westbrook out in the dirt earlier in the race.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

So then punish the 3 for putting Westbrook out in the dirt earlier in the race.

and the Pickett/Graf Spyder for punting the Drayson. we seem to think that these were the only two bumping each other all rac, which i am all fine with.

if people want to believe Jan wrecked himself, so be it...i don't see how you can come to that conclusion. if you feel he deserved it, that's just cruel, meseed up and ridiculous. nobody deserves to be PUNTED like that no matter what he did.

Jan's bump at 11 had the same results as Jorg's in the hairpin. it's all even and hard racing until someone saw that they were losing another bare knuckles brawl and so he went for the crotch.

[Purist]

Has an outside pass at speed into Turn 2 ever succeeded? The #45 did NOT push the #3 off the pavement at the exit of 2; Mags got loose and had to collect it. And lest we forget, Jorg simply took a defensive line into that area, and Mags CHOSE to attempt an outside pass with full knowledge of the potential consequences.

I think the bump and run was uncalled-for. I also think moving the Vette over right next to pit wall was too much. However, Mags turned himself off the front of the Porsche; Hamlin did the same thing to himself on a restart today in California, and hit the end of the pit wall for his trouble.

And don't go giving me the favoritism argument. I'll spell it out right here and now. My favorite driver pairing ever in ALMS was David Brabham and Jan Magnussen. If I had to pick one over the other, I'd choose Mags. That being said, I still have to say that it looked like Mags turned himself by pivoting off of the nose of the Porsche.

I think the pit out being out of bounds is good. Just because there wasn't a car coming out of the lane on that particular lap doesn't make it okay. That area is out of bounds for the obvious reason, and it also makes things the same for everyone on every lap, which I think is the most fair and balanced approach you could have in that case. I'm also glad, if the rule book technically did call for a trip to the penalty box, that that was not fully enforced in this case. Mags was simply ordered to give up the advantage, gained illegally, and we got to see the battle continue from there to the finish.

[ztnedman1]

On a different note how about Porsche's 100th class win in ALMS. 10 years, 109 Races, 100 class wins. Thats pretty damned impressive if you ask me.

Just went through past results.

In around 170 class chances (including early in the series when Porsche was only an engine manu/ not chassis manu) They have won 100.

If there has been a Porsche in the class, chances are... IT WON. Almost 60% races won. An amazing accomplishment.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

if people want to believe Jan wrecked himself, so be it...i don't see how you can come to that conclusion. if you feel he deserved it, that's just cruel, meseed up and ridiculous. nobody deserves to be PUNTED like that no matter what he did.

The unnatural way in which the front of the 45 darted out to the right just before Jan spun is proof that Jan pulled across to the right, Joerg steering to the right would not have the front of the car dart out in that way.

As for deserving it, no he didn't deserve to hit the wall like that, but based on the tactics used by the #3 for the whole race(and most of the races) they didn't deserve to win either.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Purist

Has an outside pass at speed into Turn 2 ever succeeded? The #45 did NOT push the #3 off the pavement at the exit of 2; Mags got loose and had to collect it. And lest we forget, Jorg simply took a defensive line into that area, and Mags CHOSE to attempt an outside pass with full knowledge of the potential consequences.

no pass has been made on the outside at 2 but Mags had it set it for turn 3 but if you watch it again, it is clear that Jorg got loose (oversteer) first, causing him to hit the 'vette.

Originally Posted by Purist

I think the pit out being out of bounds is good. Just because there wasn't a car coming out of the lane on that particular lap doesn't make it okay. That area is out of bounds for the obvious reason, and it also makes things the same for everyone on every lap, which I think is the most fair and balanced approach you could have in that case. I'm also glad, if the rule book technically did call for a trip to the penalty box, that that was not fully enforced in this case. Mags was simply ordered to give up the advantage, gained illegally, and we got to see the battle continue from there to the finish.

i agree here...let it be decided on the track. it is a safety issue, but when there is less 5 laps to go, ANY driver will be looking ANYWHERE for a pass, not saying it's right....

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by whitec21

And there is absolutely no excuse for cutting into pit exit like he did. That is expressly forbidden and should have been a stop and hold penalty under the rules. That is easily one of the dumbest things I have ever seen from a professional driver.

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i honestly don't know what the rules are; if that is a "forbidden zone" for drivers, then so be it. but come on....dumbest ever by a PRO driver? seriously? there was blacktop there, and no car was leaving the pits so all is fair, IMO.

Yes, that was one of the dumbest things I've seen. At that spot in the track any car coming out of the pits would have been barely going 50 mph only to be collected by someone doing 150. And Jan was already committed to that line before he could tell if anyone was there.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

The unnatural way in which the front of the 45 darted out to the right just before Jan spun is proof that Jan pulled across to the right, Joerg steering to the right would not have the front of the car dart out in that way.

Jorg's car darted right suddenly because he couldn't go any further left.

[ztnedman1]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

it's as clean as losing the traction of your car and driving someone else into the dirt as the 45 did to the 3 earlier in the lap. different approach in a different corner, but the exact same result...a competiter losing an advantage as the 'vette had the prefered line going into 3. punish one, punish the other...



i honestly don't know what the rules are; if that is a "forbidden zone" for drivers, then so be it. but come on....dumbest ever by a PRO driver? seriously? there was blacktop there, and no car was leaving the pits so all is fair, IMO.

however, the stewards disagree with me (what a stretch that is), it was deemed illegal and he was punished; correct form of punishment or not, it was issued and dealt with and has very little to do with an extremely dangerous punt, one of the worst i've ever seen, in the one of the worst place possible.

So with a chicane... if there is pavement there, and no barriers, its all fair?

Pit out is coicidentaly AT TURN 1. TURN 1. TURN 1. Jan went straight and cut it.

Just because Turn 1 here is not as blatently obvious as blowing through a chicane DOES NOT mean you can just cut the corner. This is true for all racing, everywhere.

[fjn356]

It does seem to me that IMSA should revisit how it is enforcing the avoidable contact rule. Or apologize to Mr. Enge.

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by ztnedman1

So with a chicane... if there is pavement there, and no barriers, its all fair?

Pit out is coicidentaly AT TURN 1. TURN 1. TURN 1. Jan went straight and cut it.

Just because Turn 1 here is not as blatently obvious as blowing through a chicane DOES NOT mean you can just cut the corner. This is true for all racing, everywhere.

Exactly. Not to mention the fact that that is supposed to be a safe area for cars to get up to speed.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Jorg's car darted right suddenly because he couldn't go any further left.

Then his car would have remained going strait, his car darted right because Jan pulled hard right into him and spun himself.

[Purist]

Given the position of the cars, the #45 having the tail come out would have pushed the front end of the #3 out, not given the Corvette a loose condition.

The #45 did get loose coming off the first apex, but had it gathered up before the Corvette's tail swung wide on corner exit.

As to the track, perhaps a curb needs to be put on the inside of Turn 1 for the racing surface in order to clarify that. And on the other side, have a curb on the outside of the pit exit lane at the same point. Leave the pavement so you still have that margin to run over if need be, but have those curbs as a very clear delineation of where the boundaries of pit road and race track, respectively, start and end.

[fieldodreams79]

the move was deemed illigal. he was religated to 2nd for it. and no...not fair. he was punished. i guess this means it's OK to punt him on a straight away?

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

the move was deemed illigal. he was religated to 2nd for it. and no...not fair. he was punished. i guess this means it's OK to punt him on a straight away?

I guess this means it's OK to punt him in a corner? Or how about the challenge car that Mags hit and almost put off in the corkscrew trying to keep up with Jörg? Is this the kind of driving that is considered OK these days?!

Plain and simple, Magnussen wouldn't have even been alongside on the front straight if he hadn't punted Jörg in the last corner. He saw that he couldn't win it, so he pulled a stupid move.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Then his car would have remained going strait, his car darted right because Jan pulled hard right into him and spun himself.

if you are saying Jan is dumb enough to turn into a car when he is clearly ahead of him on the track, that is your prerogitive. Jorg hit him two times forcing him as far left as he could. not being enough to stop the 'vette, the 'vette veers right after being hit for the third time, causing the end.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

if you are saying Jan is dumb enough to turn into a car when he is clearly ahead of him on the track

That is exactly what im saying and the Video footage backs that up.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by whitec21

I guess this means it's OK to punt him in a corner? Or how about the challenge car that Mags hit and almost put off in the corkscrew trying to keep up with Jörg? Is this the kind of driving that is considered OK these days?!

really...almost hitting a car that was all by itself. ALMOST? shame on you Jan!

Originally Posted by whitec21

Plain and simple, Magnussen wouldn't have even been alongside on the front straight if he hadn't punted Jörg in the last corner. He saw that he couldn't win it, so he pulled a stupid move.

Plain and simple, Jan would have been passed him into three if he hadn't been pushed on the road in the hairpin.

it's Saloon car racing; there's going to be bumps and bangs. comparing a tap to the rear of a car that was holding another up in a low speed corner to a high speed ridiculous punt is asinine.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Plain and simple, Jan would have been passed him into three if he hadn't been pushed on the road in the hairpin.

Had Jan not pushed the 18 off in T3 Jan would have been no where near Joerg at the finish.

[Purist]

I did not see another definitive hit of any kind once they were both over by pit wall.

I might also add that this is NOT Magnussen's first incident of significant contact and subsequent controversy. Does anyone else remember the Grand-Am race at Homestead in 2004? That one got pretty nasty between the #27 and #01, at 170+mph. Admittedly, I'd say that the guy in the Ganassi car started and finished that one, but still, Mags certainly gave some shots of his own.