Audi LMP1 Discussion

[gwyllion]

A cool animated video about the Audi R18 e-tron quattro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wEbQj1Mr18

It highlights the hybrid system and explains the different air flows (engine air intake, engine cooling, braking cooling, cockpit cooling, ...).

[Articus]

As awkard as it it. I think Audi isn't really complaining that Fasller made the mistakes he did at Le Mans. It makes it easier to put Lotterer and Treluyer in the car for the rest of WEC...Before there wans;t really any dirt on fassler and not much of a reason to pull him out of the #1 car for WEC other than to simply tell him we want Ben in the car not you. But now it looks like Ben-Andre duo is a go...They're sitting pretty for WEC. If McNish Kristensen and Capello think they are a trio then Andre-Ben is an even tighter duo despite having not driven that much together ouside of Le Mans and Sebring.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Articus

then Andre-Ben is an even tighter duo despite having not driven that much together ouside of Le Mans and Sebring.

It certainly helps that they were already good friends even when racing in Japan for different manufacturers.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Tribute to Dindo Capello, after great years with Audi at Le Mans.

Grazie Dindo: Fourteen great years with Audi at Le Mans

[chernaudi]

I think that Andre and Ben are a bit faster than Marcel is, and the only real mistake that he made was the spin in the Porsche Curves--the off at Mulsanne was avoiding a Corvette that spun in front of him. Granted, that damaged the car and lead to the tail being changed, but much of that damage was probably done in the earlier spin.

I do have to say that Audi may've made the R18 a bit more durable as far as the bodywork goes, because it seems that the knock in the Porsche Curves would've done more damage on a 2011 car. However, it doesn't seem to be a ton more durable, considering the ease of which Dumas broke the front fenders and front diffuser off of his car after he hit the tire wall (both in the accident and his attempts to clear the bodywork away from the tires), but the 908 last year was similarly frail.

But back to Andre and Ben--they're Audi's best chance at the WEC drivers' title, as they've been fast and consistent, and have made very few mistakes. Of course, they have a friendship a camaraderie similar to what Allan and Dindo have. Also, one of the reasons why Audi hired Loic Duval is because Andre and Ben have a close friendship with him, and he's of the same mold--insanely fast, great in traffic, and makes few if any mistakes. I do think that those guys are almost like a clone of Allan, Tom, and Dindo when they were in their prime, and being, fairly young, they have quite a few years left at Audi if they choose to stay there, which they probably will--Andre and Ben probably have multi-year contracts, and Duval is probably just a signature away from one himself.

[gwyllion]

An video interview with Ulrich Baretzky about the Audi and Toyota hybrid systems, the 2014 rules and the Nissan Delta Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IA3UxqNvIw

As always, it is very exciting to listen to Baretzky. This time he is fiercely defending Audi's hybrid system.

[chernaudi]

I do think that there might be away around the drive shafts for the e-tron: Audi's post LM press release mentions something about electrical cables replacing the drive shafts on the production cars.

Not sure how practical this would be on the race cars, though.

[gwyllion]

Not practical at all. They would have to put a 75 kW electric motor in both front wheels. That is going to very bulky and possibly impossible with current technology. Furthermore, that will be terrible for handling because of the heavily increased unspung weight.

[gwyllion]

Even though Audi did more laps than last year (because of less/shorter safety car periods), the (average) fuel consumption went down with 10%.

Brief interruption: The safety cars took command of the field at Le Mans only three times. The 24-hour race was neutralized for a total of 2hr 22mins. Last year, with 4hrs 46mins, this period was more than twice as long.

Further and faster: Last year, Marcel Fässler/André Lotterer/Benoît Tréluyer covered a distance of 4,838.295 kilometers (average speed: 201.266 km/h). This year, they completed 5,151.762 kilometers (214.468 km/h). Normally, higher speed also means higher consumption.

Breakthrough for efficiency technologies: Although the winners were 6.4 percent faster than last year, their current Audi R18 e-tron quattro burned clearly less fuel than the R18 TDI. Twelve months later, Audi managed to reduce fuel consumption by ten percent to 33.34 liters per 100 kilometers.

source: facts about Audi’s eleventh Le Mans victory

In http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...65#post2928965 I once calculated the amount of diesel that Audi used for their Le Mans victories.

• 2007 R10: 42.19 liter/100 km x 5029.110 km = 2122 liter
• 2008 R10: 45.56 liter/100 km x 5192.649 km = 2365 liter
• 2010 R15: 43.43 liter/100 km x 5410.713 km = 2350 liter
• 2011 R18: 37.08 liter/100 km x 4838.295 km = 1794 liter
• 2012 R18: 33.34 liter/100 km x 5151.762 km = 1718 liter

It is pretty amazing that the 2012 V6 TDI engine is using 20-25% less fuel than their big V10 and V12 TDI engines.

[henk4]

so with a lap length of 13.624 km, this boils down to 4.54 liter per lap on average. 2014 allocation for diesels will be ranging from 3.93 liter per lap with 2mj hybrid assistance to 3.56 l/lap for 8 mj hybrid assistance, so the Audi people need to find another 15% reduction at least....

[Tim the Grey]

The ACO document implies manufacturers were involved in writing the new rules, so I guess they think they can do that...

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

It is pretty amazing that the 2012 V6 TDI engine is using 20-25% less fuel than their big V10 and V12 TDI engines.

isn't that what the hybrid "hype" is all about? Does Audi provide figures for the Ultra as well?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by henk4

so with a lap length of 13.624 km, this boils down to 4.54 liter per lap on average. 2014 allocation for diesels will be ranging from 3.93 liter per lap with 2mj hybrid assistance to 3.56 l/lap for 8 mj hybrid assistance, so the Audi people need to find another 15% reduction at least....

But the 8x and 16x extra Hybrid energy will provide some of those 15%. How much, i don't know

[henk4]

Originally Posted by CTD

But the 8x and 16x extra Hybrid energy will provide some of those 15%. How much, i don't know

do we know what the E-trons managed this year already?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

isn't that what the hybrid "hype" is all about? Does Audi provide figures for the Ultra as well?

The lower fuel consumption is not only the result of the hybrid system. The difference in tank capacity between the ultra (60 l) and the e-tron quattro (58 l) is only 3%.

Originally Posted by CTD

But the 8x and 16x extra Hybrid energy will provide some of those 15%. How much, i don't know

It is a big misconception that the hybrids will be a lot more powerful in 2014.

The 2014 rules talk about upto 8 MJ hybrid energy per lap, whereas current rules talk about 0.5 MJ per braking zone. For 2012 the ACO/FIA defines 7 braking zones in Le Mans, so in paper 3.5 MJ hybrid energy can already be released per lap. So 8 MJ is only a bit more than twice as much of what Audi and Toyota have now.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The difference in tank capacity between the ultra (60 l) and the e-tron quattro (58 l) is only 3%.

I actually wanted to know whether Audi has provided figures about the fuel consumption of the Ultra, not about the tank capacity, but can I take it that with a similar amount of stops, the Ultra is therefore 3% less frugal than the e-tron? Comparison might be difficult, because the Ultras did a lot to get out of sync...

[gwyllion]

The #4 ultra did 375 laps (5110.87 km) and the #1 e-tron quattro 378 laps (5151.76 km). That is a difference in distance of less 1%.

The #4 ultra (32 stops) did one pitstop less than the #1 e-tron quattro (33 stops). That is a difference of around 3%, exactly the difference in fuel tank capacity.

So both cars probably used a similar amount of diesel, but the hybrid went 1% further.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The #4 ultra did 375 laps (5110.87 km) and the #1 e-tron quattro 378 laps (5151.76 km). That is a difference in distance of less 1%.

The #4 ultra (32 stops) did one pitstop less than the #1 e-tron quattro (33 stops). That is a difference of around 3%, exactly the difference in fuel tank capacity.

So both cars probably used a similar amount of diesel, but the hybrid went 1% further.

did they spend the same amount in the pit too? I remember the #4 being put in the garage almost immediately after the start, and wasn't it the number 4 that had these gearbox glitches?

[chewymonster]

Excellent fuel economy considering the performance of the R18. Audi found a huge amount of fuel economy over last year considering that there was half the safety car period.

The hybrid system probably provides 0% extra fuel economy as I don't think that the diesel is running any less than 100% full load when the drivers floor it out of the corner. The only way that it would provide any benefit is if the E-tron driver uses 90% of the engine power out of the same corner where the Ultra driver would be using full engine power.

Anyone know if the E-tron drivers did anything like that? With the E-tron powering the front wheels traction isn't an issue so I don't think that the Audi hybrid system ever works like traction control and limits the diesel when the electric motor in working.

[Creep89]

Ullrich stated that they use the hybrid as an extra power, not to save fuel.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

did they spend the same amount in the pit too? I remember the #4 being put in the garage almost immediately after the start, and wasn't it the number 4 that had these gearbox glitches?

According to http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...Stops_Race.PDF the #1 spent 40:59.968 in the pits and the #4 39:58.137. That is a difference of 1 minute, exactly the time for an additional fuel stop.

Like chewymonster said, the hybrid system is probably not used to used to save fuel. I remember that the drivers of the hybrid Audi might have to use some fuel saving tricks in order to do 12 lap stints (i.e., go off throttle earlier before braking such that the hybrid system is charged completely).

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...Stops_Race.PDF the #1 spent 40:59.968 in the pits and the #4 39:58.137. That is a difference of 1 minute, exactly the time for an additional fuel stop.

Like chewymonster said, the hybrid system is probably not used to used to save fuel. I remember that the drivers of the hybrid Audi might have to use some fuel saving tricks in order to do 12 lap stints (i.e., go off throttle earlier before braking such that the hybrid system is charged completely).

still not convinced, the number 1 car spent some additional time in the pits to change parts of the rear undertray. I would love to see official Audi figures for the mileage of the Ultras.

[Bubak]

Originally Posted by henk4

still not convinced, the number 1 car spent some additional time in the pits to change parts of the rear undertray. I would love to see official Audi figures for the mileage of the Ultras.

We must not forget that at the beginning of the race num. 4 car was also tucked away in the Audi pit (see how much time, see data, but I think lost a lap), because Mike Rockenfeller reported a problem "something in the rear (vibration in rear)." And number 4 had problem with the gearbox, which of course it could also occur in fuel consumption.

[Bubak]

BTW last time when I saw the report on the Audi's 33-liter fuel consumption occured me that: What about Peugeot? It would perhaps Peugeot be able to do 13 lap fuel stint with hybrid or normal car this year? We have to admin , Peugeot was not bad at all for that. According to the Audi numbers last year, yeah we do not have real Peugeot numbers from Peugeot Sport, but Pug was better fuel consumption at all with number 9 car (same laps, only few seconds behind, and endurance). The engine had more power, fuel consumption were great. Only the front aero was a problem just a bit. :-)

(But yes, 908 have less downforce, it was more flat out.)

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Bubak

We must not forget that at the beginning of the race num. 4 car was also tucked away in the Audi pit (see how much time, see data, but I think lost a lap), because Mike Rockenfeller reported a problem "something in the rear (vibration in rear)." And number 4 had problem with the gearbox, which of course it could also occur in fuel consumption.

see post 3619....

My point is that the E-trons were not significantly faster than the Ultras, and at the same time seem to have had about the same fuel consumption. I can understand why audi does not seem to be inclined to reveal the mileage of the Ultras, because the marketing machine runs for the hybrid. Yet, it remains to be seen whether it is worth the effort, certainly also in the light of some comments above which clearly imply that hybrid is not intended for fuel saving in the audi book.