[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Articus

Jani was horrific in traffic and that really cost Porsche

Actually in that phase the fastest car and more risk taking at the final hour was the #8... and we know how that ended up... and for a car with visible more downforce and corner ability than a Porsche (don't be to eager to condemn, all Porsche drivers did an excellent full of risks job in the twisty parts)

[Akrapovic]

Why did the Porsches top speed decline as the race went on? Does the efficiency of the hybrid system tail off as the race goes on? Accordingly to commentary, it was 10km/h down at the end than it was at the start. If the car is making the majority of its lap time through straight line speed, then this is quite a big hit.

Looking forward to seeing them run the 3 different coloured cars at Le Mans though!

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why did the Porsches top speed decline as the race went on? Does the efficiency of the hybrid system tail off as the race goes on? Accordingly to commentary, it was 10km/h down at the end than it was at the start. If the car is making the majority of its lap time through straight line speed, then this is quite a big hit.

Looking forward to seeing them run the 3 different coloured cars at Le Mans though!

It's not that per say. What you'll find is that the top speed at the end of the Kemmel depends on how effectively you can get through Eau Rouge. While Eau Rouge is flat 99% of the time in the dry, even when you are flat you can lose speed through there if the front tires are scrubbing due to understeer. The Porsche on the older tires is going to be less effective through Eau Rouge and thus slower at the end of the Kemmel.

The Audi's were loaded with downforce so they were a constant at the end of the Kemmel unless hitting traffic in Eau Rouge.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why did the Porsches top speed decline as the race went on? Does the efficiency of the hybrid system tail off as the race goes on? Accordingly to commentary, it was 10km/h down at the end than it was at the start. If the car is making the majority of its lap time through straight line speed, then this is quite a big hit.

Looking forward to seeing them run the 3 different coloured cars at Le Mans though!

That "decline" is actually a myth.

If you graph the top speeds of the Porsches for every lap of the race, and compare the shape of the graph to the #7 Audi, one will find that the shape is the same. There is no "fall off". There are of course variances , but the graph does not start off high at the start of the race, and end low at the end of the race. This is true for #17, #18 and #19. In fact, both #17 and #18 reached amongst their highest top speeds on the last laps.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

That "decline" is actually a myth.

If you graph the top speeds of the Porsches for every lap of the race, and compare the shape of the graph to the #7 Audi, one will find that the shape is the same. There is no "fall off". There are of course variances , but the graph does not start off high at the start of the race, and end low at the end of the race. This is true for #17, #18 and #19. In fact, both #17 and #18 reached amongst their highest top speeds on the last laps.

Do you have any source for this data? It contradicts what RLM stated during the broadcast.

[Spyderman]

Lots of things contradict what RLM states.
Do you think I would really make this statement without examining the data?
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/

[Akrapovic]

No, I don't think you'd make such a statement - that's why I asked for the data, because it contradicts what I have previously read. Thank you.

No offence intended Spyderman, but there's no need to be so hostile. I asked a question, you answered and I just asked when you got your answer. Try not to take any comment that is not 100% positive about Porsche as something against yourself..

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Do you have any source for this data? It contradicts what RLM stated during the broadcast.

I think he was talking about lap times rather than top speed, but Trussers said that after he studied the data from Silverstone he saw no drop off during the race.

Are we just seeing them having relatively good Q pace and a car that bursts out of corners keeping hem ahead early on and then Audi just slowly eat into that advantage and then Lotterer gets in the car!

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

No, I don't think you'd make such a statement - that's why I asked for the data, because it contradicts what I have previously read. Thank you.

No offence intended Spyderman, but there's no need to be so hostile. I asked a question, you answered and I just asked when you got your answer. Try not to take any comment that is not 100% positive about Porsche as something against yourself..

No offense taken , but it was a pretty factual statement that I was making. It was not an "opinion" or "speculative" statement. I understand that you may want to see the data. There are less confrontational ways of requesting it.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think he was talking about lap times rather than top speed, but Trussers said that after he studied the data from Silverstone he saw no drop off during the race.

I think Hindy did mention that he saw one of the Porsche's top speeds were below what it had previously been. What I think happened is that certain conclusions were drawn form that statement that were false.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Are we just seeing them having relatively good Q pace and a car that bursts out of corners keeping hem ahead early on and then Audi just slowly eat into that advantage and then Lotterer gets in the car!

Lotterer is another myth in the making. There is no doubt that he is a fantastic driver. Audi's quickest and best driver, but it is the Porsche tire wear issues (during second stints) that are making the difference (see other posts with average lap times per driver that I have posted).

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

That "decline" is actually a myth

If anything , the car should get quicker with the fuel being used . But I think Porsche have an issue with tyres ..... making them last a stint is just about all they can manage I hear ?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by The Badger

If anything , the car should get quicker with the fuel being used . But I think Porsche have an issue with tyres ..... making them last a stint is just about all they can manage I hear ?

True, but they are working on it.

[prototype]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

True, but they are working on it.

Looking at the regulations, I couldn't find any tyre quantity restrictions for Le Mans. This should bode well for Porsche at Le Mans.

I am not saying they don't have to get better, but it will be nice for them to not be forced to extend a used set by the regulations.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by prototype

Looking at the regulations, I couldn't find any tyre quantity restrictions for Le Mans. This should bode well for Porsche at Le Mans.

I am not saying they don't have to get better, but it will be nice for them to not be forced to extend a used set by the regulations.

There are no tyre restrictions at Le Mans. But if you have to change them whilst Audi and Toyota don't, you lose 30 seconds.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

There are no tyre restrictions at Le Mans. But if you have to change them whilst Audi and Toyota don't, you lose 30 seconds.

That is true. There in lies the crux of the matter. They need to triple their tires at Le Mans. I think they will be able to double stint . The nature of the track is such that it may allow them to do this. They will need to triple stint (at least) to keep up with Audi and Toyota.

[Akrapovic]

If they can double stint whilst Toyota and Audi triple stint then I think Porsche may be in a better position than what we currently think. It'll be 1 extra tyre change for every 6 pit stops I think. So they only need to make up 30ish seconds per every 6 stops. I think the Porsche will have the speed to achieve this.

The question is that if Audi were able to 2.5 stint the tyres at Spa, can they quad stint them at Le Mans without a significant drop in lap times?

[Spyderman]

You are quite correct, however there is still another factor in the equation. Fuel. I don't have off hand the length of the stint at Le Mans. ~12 laps I think?? Maybe 13 for Porsche. Maybe 1 stop less for Porsche.

[Creep89]

12 for Audi, 12-13 for Toyota (on the edge) and Porsche can go easily for 13.

[Artur]

It was common for Audi to quadruple the tires on previous years, so...

Double stinting is no if for anybody, methinks. At the very least even Porsche will double stint every time. I think triple stints might even be the normal service for Porsche. The test day(s) will give an indication, I hope

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Creep89

12 for Audi, 12-13 for Toyota (on the edge) and Porsche can go easily for 13.

So maybe 2 stops less for Porsche in a 360 lap race. (if all goes to plan....which is unlikely at Le Mans).

[Akrapovic]

2 stops less, but more longer stops than Audi. Possibly a better lap time than Audi. I think Porsche are looking rather good for LM!

[Victor_RO]

I thought I heard Trussers saying 13 for Audi, bordering on 14 for Toyota and 14 for Porsche.

[Creep89]

Uuuhm okay. My bad, I think you are right.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

There are no tyre restrictions at Le Mans. But if you have to change them whilst Audi and Toyota don't, you lose 30 seconds.

Meaning having to be > 2 sec faster per lap than the competition to retain some advantage of being faster at the end of a stint (not likely!...)

Porsche is going to at least double stint tires often

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

So maybe 2 stops less for Porsche in a 360 lap race. (if all goes to plan....which is unlikely at Le Mans).

Audi and Toyota in 2014 often did 13 laps stints... if Porsche is going for 14 laps stint it has to go slower than possibilities, which does not bode well for LM...

@ Akrapovic

its a very long race... i don't expect Porsche to run trouble free, the higher the speed and the pushing the more likely problems to surface, does not bode well for engine reliability, specially a very powerful and revving small engine that is not mature yet (was the casue of 2014 LM terminal failures).

Its the handicap of small powerful petrol engines in that respect, and the advantage of diesel( can push and push and push 24 or more hours long)... and as long Audi stays with the LM race at the center of the eye, they will remain on diesel.