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Old 11 Jul 2004, 22:53 (Ref:1033532)   #1
Number Juan
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Is Formula One *Too* Fast?

im sure this discussion has been raised many times before, but watching the British GP today, i was thinking "These cars look really f---ing fast" (sorry for the profuse language!)

after the recent spate of quite large accidents, im unsure whether Formula One cars should be going this fast, whether they corner too fast. i heard a comment in ITVs commentary that JB was experiencing 7G during cornering in qualifying. now, to me, that is too harsh.

so i was wondering, is formula one too fast now? how can we slow the cars down? and would this be productive? your thoughts please!
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Old 11 Jul 2004, 23:21 (Ref:1033547)   #2
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5 g yes...7g?? thats prolly over hyped
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 07:03 (Ref:1033745)   #3
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If the Logos on the cars cannot be read then they are going too fast

Forget about the safety and the Gs, You will give Bernie the impression you believe his little subterfuge

LOL
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 09:37 (Ref:1033865)   #4
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I thinkMB said 6Gs, which is still a lot - I don't think passenger aircraft pull as much.

I don't think they're too fast to be safe though. A lot of the recent crashes ahven't beene specially high speed, and most would have the same outcome at 140mph as 190mph. The main problem to correct is the reliance on aerodynamic grip. The narrower cars and treaded tyres were mistkaes as well, mre from a perspective of limiting overtaking than anything.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 10:02 (Ref:1033893)   #5
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Cornering speeds do need to be pulled back a bit.

The cars are now 8 to 10 seconds a lap faster than just a few years ago.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 10:06 (Ref:1033900)   #6
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Hmmm, fighter aircraft pull 8g's while turning sharply at Mach 1....
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 10:12 (Ref:1033907)   #7
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What the hell! if i was in a crash i would want to be in an F1 car, its got to be one of the safest motorsports at the moment, dont slow them down. I am mainly a bike person into and starting superbike racing, motorbiking is far more dangerous yet it is not being slowed down, so why F1, the best thing to do is try and improve safety through car design and track design, its track run off that kills people alot of the time due to the fact that the barriers are getting closer track side, i dont want to hit a concorete barrier at 180mph or 60mph!!
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 10:26 (Ref:1033930)   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by tater
the best thing to do is try and improve safety through car design and track design, its track run off that kills people alot of the time due to the fact that the barriers are getting closer track side, i dont want to hit a concorete barrier at 180mph or 60mph!!
Let's not change track design.... let's keep places like Spa and Monaco and Suzuka. I think we aleady had this thread after Ralf's accident and we decided that although speeds are increasing.....

1) It's still reasonably safe compared to previous decades, and
2) The FIA is doing something with planned engine changes to 2.4-2.5L V8's and possible control tyre etc.

In other words.... we could do with a small speed reduction and it will happen.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 11:09 (Ref:1033985)   #9
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I'm very strongly of the view that you can't remove danger from F1 (or any motorsport for that matter), but you can minimise the risks and eliminate unnecessary risk. And I also very strongly believe that the progress made in the safety of F1 over the last 15 to 20 years has been absolutely superb. I have argued vehemently against those who have recently claimed that safety is not treated seriously and that the FIA is somehow negligent, because that denies the progress that continues to be made.

I also believe that an F1 car is probably the safest vehicle you could possibly be in if you're going to have a 150mph - 200mph accident. As proved at Indy.

However.

Yes. Max is right. We need to reel it in a bit. F1 cars are now pushing the envelope into territory only previously experienced in the development of military aircraft. And after two major accidents in three races, I fear that the next one might not be so lucky. It is time for the FIA to act, as it has done continually over the past few decades, to slow the cars a little. It doesn't need to be much, just back to 2003 lap times would be enough. But it would be a tragedy if the action is taken in response to F1's next fatality.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 11:09 (Ref:1033986)   #10
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It's fine the way it is - all this speed and safety talk is coming from the FIA and specifically Max Mosely, who needs to be able to invoke the safety regs to get all his changes through without needing anyone to agree.

Ralf Schumacher's accident was more or less his Reichstag fire.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 14:49 (Ref:1034261)   #11
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shiny side up! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As far as the human body is concerned, those 5g (or 6) peak loads seen for an instant in a corner pose no threat to the drivers per se. Prolonged amounts of time at even 4g can cause problems with dizziness/narrow vision/nausea/fatigue, though, as evidenced by the champ cars at the oval in Texas.

The real problem is the g loadings that occur when an race car hits something. The consequences of coming unglued in a corner often include contact with a barrier (or another car), and the higher the speed in the corner, the worse the consequences will be upon impact.

At any rate, physics tell us there is a HUGE difference between an impact at 140mph and 180mph. Without getting too technical, the kinetic energy of a car varies by the square of it's velocity... so the 40mph gap between a crash at 180 and 140 is much worse than the 40mph gap between 80 and 40 as far as the energy involved goes.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:10 (Ref:1034286)   #12
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
IMO the main problem with high speed cornering is that overtaking is more and more difficult.
About forces, if drivers don't complain why shlould we?
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:17 (Ref:1034300)   #13
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shiny side up! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The reason that high speed cornering makes overtaking difficult is the means by which current F1 cars achieve those high speeds... through aerodynamics. It is perfectly possible to pass in high speed corners, there you can take NASCAR for example at 190+ mph (and at half or less the g-loads of F1!)

As for drivers complaining, some currently are! TGF, Trulli, Fisi, and others have voiced that opinion so far this season. But some drivers (Panis comes to mind... not that he has to worry about travelling all that fast in the Toyota ) disagree with the notion that F1 is too fast, they like it how it is...

Last edited by shiny side up!; 12 Jul 2004 at 15:18.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:22 (Ref:1034304)   #14
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My impression now is that the increase in cornering speed, through improved aerodynamic performance, is beginning to outstrip the advance in component reliability. Hence the (possible) cause of Trulli's accident. We don't know yet, but it looked like mechanical failure. Was that caused by degradation of a suspension part damaged by contact or kerbing earlier in the race, or was it straightforward component failure at high lateral g? The latter is what worries me most.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:25 (Ref:1034309)   #15
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I'm quite nervous about Spa and Monza for that very reason.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:25 (Ref:1034311)   #16
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Track design can be a big factor as well. Trulli's accident could have been lethal had the car crashed into something upside down.

Last edited by Paarma; 12 Jul 2004 at 15:27.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:35 (Ref:1034322)   #17
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garcon, I see where you are coming from. If it was a component failure, I doubt it was caused by one individual peak g-load. If it was a carbon component, that is possible... but would have occured much earlier in the part's life, unless there was some strange temperature issue (which has happened before for sure, just ask TGF about Monaco a few years ago...). If it was a metal component it probably was a fatigue issue, it failed after repeatedly being cycled through high and low loadings lap after lap.

Either way, I don't believe that aerodynamics is too good for the available componenet technology... engineers can always devise a more structurally robust part to cope with 100g in corners. Their problem is that stronger parts mean heavier parts, and race engineers hate weight!

In the end, the techinical 'formula' that is F1 is responsible for the speed at which cars travel, as the object of racing is to go as fast as possible given the rules of the game. I hope F1 does something soon to slow the cars down, hopefully whilst making it a bit easier to pass, before one of these big crashes turn out horrible...
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:37 (Ref:1034326)   #18
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
However, about Renaults, there is something that doesn't convinces me, I mean, up to Monaco they shared with Ferrari the record of most reliable team, then, all of a sudden, they started usffering serious structural failures.
IMo those cars have been changed in order to get lighter (and, maybe, to compensate via that the horsepower gap), but also getting more fragile by consequence.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:38 (Ref:1034327)   #19
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Corner speeds have not gone up because of aerodynamic increases (well, I'm sure they have a bit, but not solely) rather they have increased massively because of the tyre war and, partly, the fashion for three pit-stops (which leads directly from the parc ferme rules). The tyres are just so sticky these days.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:38 (Ref:1034328)   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paarma
Track design can be a big factor as well. Trulli's accident could have been lethal had the car crashed into something upside down.
Very true. Although hopefully there are now very few places where such high forces are in action that there is not sufficient run-off... bearing in mind the car usually has to hit something (like a kerb or gravel trap) to flip in the first place, so although not unheard of, hitting the wall upside down at Indy is unlikely, for example.

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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:42 (Ref:1034333)   #21
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Good point Glen - tyres are probably as much involved as aerodynamics in increasing corner speeds. And more aggressive pit strategy is likely to increase speeds too.

So it's not just aero, then...

Last edited by garcon; 12 Jul 2004 at 15:43.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 15:58 (Ref:1034361)   #22
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Great points from Glen and Climb in my view. I don't think Renault's problems ar eindicative of a general trend. With both the big crashes they've caused, there was never any real chance of injury.

I don't think there's a real need to slow the cars down, or do anything different in terms of car safety. The trend towards safety cars and away from red flags in situations of lots of on-track debris is worrying and misplaced in my view, but otherwise I've got no complaints, and I don't expect Monza or Spa to have any problems.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 16:41 (Ref:1034401)   #23
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Jordi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJordi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
At least in Silverstone Trulli had a doctor by his side in less than a minute.
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 17:09 (Ref:1034418)   #24
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The suspension failures of the Renaults is a failed mod. they have intruduced to the car and I can Agree with Climb that they might want to increase the power-weight ratio of the car to improve performance...I think speed is still okey...
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Old 12 Jul 2004, 17:15 (Ref:1034425)   #25
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People are saying now then that the issue is that Formula One cars can't overtake at the current speeds.

So is it a spectator's issue, or is it a safety issue?

I find it hard to imagine that carbonfibre suspension parts would fatigue so suddenly at something like 6g - and certain accidents, especially in CART, have been known to result in up to 40g for the briefest of moments. Luciano Burti's Spa crash is a case in point.

Safety-wise I still don't think F1 is dangerously fast, but from a competition perspective, perhaps they should be looking at reducing the demand on aerodynamics/tyres?
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