No Sound from the Diesel Engine(led to Rockenfeller and McNish accidents?)

[Audi Racer]

I couldnt help but point out that the Audi's and Peugeot's have no engine noise. The Audi's got taken out in two incidents where the driver couldnt see the Audi and turned in on it.

i would also like to mention that I was watching the onboard for the #7 peugeot on one of Anthony Davidson's Stints and he almost had the exact same incident that happened to Rockenfeller in the exact same place. This went unnoticed by live television fortunately i was watching the feed and it was close.

Anthony was going for the inside in the kink and the Larbre Corvette apexed it and Davidson backed out of it and passed on the outside. Davidson fortunately had the time to back out of it.


Notice that none of the Petrol powered cars had these close calls because you can here the petrol cars coming. If you cant see them hearing them is the next best thing.

Since theres no engine sound on the Audi or Peugeot they are more susceptible to being hit by unaware Gt Drivers. Heres the differnce between sound and light. When the bright light shines it blinds the GT car's mirrors and theres no perception of distance. We all know based on the Doppler effect that the Petrol P1 car will sound different when it is far away compared to when it is at your quarterpanel. Sound in most cases allows for distance perception. Its alot easier to know where the Petrol P1 is thatn the diesels. Woudlnt be surpsrised if ppone of the two teams comes back next year with a louder sounding engine


Its the same issue electric road cars have with pedestrianss. People dont here the elctric car and risk getting hit now they make electric cares give audible sounds to alert pedestrians

[MitchZ06]

Davidson tried that move because he was going hard in his stint...theres alot of pressure on the Pug and Audi guys to perform and they think these risks are acceptable.

Its really got nothing to do with sound because how many times have we seen these accidents? Maybe just once this year? The prototypes have to flash their headlights to let another car know they're coming so thats not an issue especially with the super bright lights of the Audis and Pugs this year. The only reason petrol prototypes aren't having this issue is because the drivers aren't taking the same reckless risk as the works drivers...

[Aysedasi]

Whilst the Audi is very quiet - the Peugeot most definitely has engine sound...... It ain't no Aston Martin V12, but sound it certainly has......


Personally, I don't think sound has anything to do with the accidents.

[Al Weyman]

Watch any of my incar Videos on YouTube and you will not hear any other competitors engines and my camera doesnt have a full face helmet and balaclava and maybe ear plugs, it wouldnt make a jot of difference IMHO even if the thing was electric powered. Horrible sound though isnt it, sounds like a Ford Transit van on steriods.

[PorscheCurves]

Don't think that the lack of engine noise caused the accidents. The slower cars get a flash from the headlights.

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Davidson tried that move because he was going hard in his stint...theres alot of pressure on the Pug and Audi guys to perform and they think these risks are acceptable.

Its really got nothing to do with sound because how many times have we seen these accidents? Maybe just once this year? The prototypes have to flash their headlights to let another car know they're coming so thats not an issue especially with the super bright lights of the Audis and Pugs this year. The only reason petrol prototypes aren't having this issue is because the drivers aren't taking the same reckless risk as the works drivers...

There was an interesting discussion going on RLM at one point between Hindy and Graham (i think it was those two, at about 4am) that actually the LMP lights are too bright... which means when a GT car looks in it's mirrors all it see's is a white out, with no idea where the actual car is.

The discussion came about from talking about the vision, and how the old RML Lola coupe had a rear camera with software used to dim the lights... clever stuff.

[paddy]

I think it's a combination of poor vision, blinding lights and LMP1 drivers who are pushing beyond the limit. It seems to me that the pressure on the Pug and Audi drivers means they can't afford to lift and lose a few seconds. I watched all but a few hours on Eurosport and the pace was unrelenting. Fascinating stuff, but being on the limit for so long has to have consequences.

[garcon]

I don't think engine noise has anything to do with it - you can't hear a damn thing other than your own car's noises from the cockpit, certainly until the other car is in front.

First accident was a classic Le Mans 50/50 where I'm afraid McNish just assumed the other guy would make way. The second was down to night time visibility - I don't think the other driver realised Rockenfeller was flashing him, sometimes it can just look like the car is going over a few bumps.

[broadrun96]

I have to agree that listening for the other cars to judge how far back they are has to be almost impossible in anything but maybe the R-15. The lights have to be the best way to judge both distance and closing speed and given that it seems universal that Audi's lights were insanely bright logic would lead you to Kauffman not understanding exactly how close Rocky really was. And I am really glad to see the tempers have subsided a little about banning Kauffman from racing forever, during the race it seemed like he was the most hated man since Davidson last year.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

I couldnt help but point out that the Audi's and Peugeot's have no engine noise. The Audi's got taken out in two incidents where the driver couldnt see the Audi and turned in on it.

i would also like to mention that I was watching the onboard for the #7 peugeot on one of Anthony Davidson's Stints and he almost had the exact same incident that happened to Rockenfeller in the exact same place. This went unnoticed by live television fortunately i was watching the feed and it was close.

Anthony was going for the inside in the kink and the Larbre Corvette apexed it and Davidson backed out of it and passed on the outside. Davidson fortunately had the time to back out of it.


Notice that none of the Petrol powered cars had these close calls because you can here the petrol cars coming. If you cant see them hearing them is the next best thing.

Since theres no engine sound on the Audi or Peugeot they are more susceptible to being hit by unaware Gt Drivers. Heres the differnce between sound and light. When the bright light shines it blinds the GT car's mirrors and theres no perception of distance. We all know based on the Doppler effect that the Petrol P1 car will sound different when it is far away compared to when it is at your quarterpanel. Sound in most cases allows for distance perception. Its alot easier to know where the Petrol P1 is thatn the diesels. Woudlnt be surpsrised if ppone of the two teams comes back next year with a louder sounding engine


Its the same issue electric road cars have with pedestrianss. People dont here the elctric car and risk getting hit now they make electric cares give audible sounds to alert pedestrians

You ever been in a car with open exhausts and a helmet on? You're not hearing anything past your own exhaust. Based on experience, even with open windows and just window nets, you're not gonna hear much of the other cars. Add in closed lexan windows, and the "sound" of the other cars is a non factor.

McNish's wreck was a dumb, low percentage move too early in the race. Rocky's was an amatuer driver having brain fade at 2 in the morning in the dark.

[wheelz22]

Those two incidents had nothing at all to do with engine sound level.....c'mon.

[Fogelhund]

I don't think it is inconceivable, that the poor visibility out of the R18 didn't play somewhat of a part though.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I don't think it is inconceivable, that the poor visibility out of the R18 didn't play somewhat of a part though.

My thoughts as well.

Dr. Ulrich says no.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92285

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

You ever been in a car with open exhausts and a helmet on? You're not hearing anything past your own exhaust.

I think you are absolutely correct. Anyone who thinks the Larbre Corvette driver would have heard anybody coming up behind him over the bellow and rumble of the Corvette engine, is just way off base. Especially with the helmet scrunched over their head.

DK

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

I couldnt help but point out that the Audi's and Peugeot's have no engine noise.

I confirm that Peugeot makes noise, a solid lorry one.

The Audi's got taken out in two incidents where the driver couldnt see the Audi and turned in on it.

i would also like to mention that I was watching the onboard for the #7 peugeot on one of Anthony Davidson's Stints and he almost had the exact same incident that happened to Rockenfeller in the exact same place. This went unnoticed by live television fortunately i was watching the feed and it was close.

Anthony was going for the inside in the kink and the Larbre Corvette apexed it and Davidson backed out of it and passed on the outside. Davidson fortunately had the time to back out of it.

Notice that none of the Petrol powered cars had these close calls because you can here the petrol cars coming. If you cant see them hearing them is the next best thing.

Since theres no engine sound on the Audi or Peugeot they are more susceptible to being hit by unaware Gt Drivers. Heres the differnce between sound and light. When the bright light shines it blinds the GT car's mirrors and theres no perception of distance.

That the lights of the Audi blinds the GT car's mirrors, yes, I think it's possible.

We all know based on the Doppler effect that the Petrol P1 car will sound different when it is far away compared to when it is at your quarterpanel. Sound in most cases allows for distance perception. Its alot easier to know where the Petrol P1 is thatn the diesels. Woudlnt be surpsrised if ppone of the two teams comes back next year with a louder sounding engine

As said in a post above, I'm not sure that the differential of speed between the GT and LMP makes the Doppler effect of the sound easily perceptible with a helmet, the noises of your own car and of the relative wind.

Its the same issue electric road cars have with pedestrianss. People dont here the electric car and risk getting hit now they make electric cares give audible sounds to alert pedestrians

You are absolutely right, I totally agree. When I have electric car I hope I will be allowed to choose the noise : Panoz, V12 ? Difficult to choose !

[Gingers4Justice]

The Peugeot is louder than some of the quieter petrol cars, no doubt about that, so we can take them out of this debate straight away!

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

I couldnt help but point out that the Audi's and Peugeot's have no engine noise. The Audi's got taken out in two incidents where the driver couldnt see the Audi and turned in on it.

i would also like to mention that I was watching the onboard for the #7 peugeot on one of Anthony Davidson's Stints and he almost had the exact same incident that happened to Rockenfeller in the exact same place. This went unnoticed by live television fortunately i was watching the feed and it was close.

Anthony was going for the inside in the kink and the Larbre Corvette apexed it and Davidson backed out of it and passed on the outside. Davidson fortunately had the time to back out of it.


Notice that none of the Petrol powered cars had these close calls because you can here the petrol cars coming. If you cant see them hearing them is the next best thing.

Since theres no engine sound on the Audi or Peugeot they are more susceptible to being hit by unaware Gt Drivers. Heres the differnce between sound and light. When the bright light shines it blinds the GT car's mirrors and theres no perception of distance. We all know based on the Doppler effect that the Petrol P1 car will sound different when it is far away compared to when it is at your quarterpanel. Sound in most cases allows for distance perception. Its alot easier to know where the Petrol P1 is thatn the diesels. Woudlnt be surpsrised if ppone of the two teams comes back next year with a louder sounding engine


Its the same issue electric road cars have with pedestrianss. People dont here the elctric car and risk getting hit now they make electric cares give audible sounds to alert pedestrians

In the words of John McEnroe "You cannot be serious!" ...Sound usually follows not preceeds a vehicle! Perhaps Diesel LMP's should be fitted with Hooters to warn of their SPEEDY approach, like road vehicles!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Dr. Ulrich says no.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92285

Of course he isn't going to come out and say that they have a safety issue, but will continue racing anyway.

[cmk]

It's hard to know what the real view from the cockpit is like, but I would expect the Audi drivers to have problems with visibility off centre-line in the cockpit, if at all. With the Rockenfeller incident, I felt like he based his commitment to the inside off his view out of the front during approach, and had already put himself into a wedge where his ability to see car on left or grass on right wasn't going to make a spot of difference as he was going for a ride no matter what. Maybe the view for the driver is worse, but in particular with in-car cameras at night I expect overall visibility is better given the aperture and focus response of the human eye.

With the McNish crash, judging the role of visibility is a little harder, because I think the biggest vision impediment that resulted in poor car positioning was the other R18 right in front of him - this affected both Allan and Beltoise I would surmise. Vision notwithstanding, a bit of impetuousness is the primary culprit here in my estimation.

I do not believe sound or lack thereof has anything to do with either of these incidents.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Whilst the Audi is very quiet - the Peugeot most definitely has engine sound...... It ain't no Aston Martin V12, but sound it certainly has......

Personally, I don't think sound has anything to do with the accidents.

ACtually this isnt true. I know your thinking about the Onboard footage from tehe new 908(yes that sounds very loud.. but the sound coming from the onboard footage isn't the engine sound. Its a rather weird phenomena. The reall teller of the sound is when the camera was on the pit straight and the Peugeot went by and it just sounded like a whisper. The on board footage sounds like some kind of tractor and that isnt the sound of the 908

Originally Posted by PorscheCurves

Don't think that the lack of engine noise caused the accidents. The slower cars get a flash from the headlights.

Lights are blinding on the Audi and 908 regardless of flash. Themlights just switch from blinding to doulble blinding. The 908 doesnt sound like what the onboard footage makes it seem. Appparently its chatter that your hearing

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

The Peugeot is louder than some of the quieter petrol cars, no doubt about that, so we can take them out of this debate straight away!

See above.^ The onboard camera on the 908 isnt hearing the true sound of the 908

[Audi Racer]

Well if most of the gt cars are front engine its not inconcievable that you could here something from behind you.


however the 458's are mid engiend with the engine behind the driver which would drown out all sounds that could of beehn heard from behind

[Sodemo]

Hmm, not sure about that. F1 drivers say that they can hear a car when its alongside them, so maybe the sound does have something in it.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

ACtually this isnt true. I know your thinking about the Onboard footage from tehe new 908(yes that sounds very loud.. but the sound coming from the onboard footage isn't the engine sound. Its a rather weird phenomena. The reall teller of the sound is when the camera was on the pit straight and the Peugeot went by and it just sounded like a whisper. The on board footage sounds like some kind of tractor and that isnt the sound of the 908

See above.^ The onboard camera on the 908 isnt hearing the true sound of the 908

It is the real sound, since it's not a fake sound either, but with a lot of sound distortion. Same for every car and obviously just more prominent the louder the engine is.

(ACO/Eurosport should do something about the sound quality of the onboard mics, compare to ALMS or FIA GT1 onboards for example.)

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

ACtually this isnt true. I know your thinking about the Onboard footage from tehe new 908(yes that sounds very loud.. but the sound coming from the onboard footage isn't the engine sound. Its a rather weird phenomena. The reall teller of the sound is when the camera was on the pit straight and the Peugeot went by and it just sounded like a whisper. The on board footage sounds like some kind of tractor and that isnt the sound of the 908



Lights are blinding on the Audi and 908 regardless of flash. Themlights just switch from blinding to doulble blinding. The 908 doesnt sound like what the onboard footage makes it seem. Appparently its chatter that your hearing



See above.^ The onboard camera on the 908 isnt hearing the true sound of the 908

My comment was not what it sounded like, it was about how loud it was. The new 908 is not a silent car. If you could hear engine sounds from inside a cockpit, you could make out the 908.

I'm going by youtube videos and what spectators who have seen it race have said - it's an audible car.

[reef1234]

In the Rocky shunt engine note would have nothing to do with the shunt. It's a unspoken rule that the apex for the two kinks on the way down to Indianapolis should be left for the faster cars if they are trying to overtake. There was no need for the Ferrari to take the apex as the difference in lap time is nothing, he could have easily let the Audi have the inside with effect on his performance.