V8 SuperTourers in NZ - 'Car Of Tomorrow'

[Southern Man]

As we get closer to the end of the year and people have to firm up on their intentions to run cars in February, how many of the names / teams suggested all those months ago are actually going to turn up at the first meeting.

[Chappelli]

http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/motorspor...8-racing-cars/

Interesting PR... Can one assume that the V8 Challenge Cup is lacking for numbers?

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

This year should (have been) a steller year for NZV8. With most of the fast guys sitting out new blood should be able to strike a blow and post decent results. Cars are cheap to buy.

So, if buying a chassis (that's effectively 12 months from obsolete in NZV8s) is a great idea right now... surely there should be no shortage of people wanting to buy one to run in the cheaper, better attended (with one NZST fan suggesting there was a rumour of 10k ticket sales in a week) and incentivised ($50k Scholarship, plus test drives in the new car)championship??

[Mr Revhead]

10k of sales in a day?
Has ANY motorsport event in NZ ever done that?
Obvious choice would be A1GO, but I'm sure even that did that.

[GizzFan]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

On a different subject - I presume all the ST fuel system components are biofuel tolerant?

I asked Garry Pedersen that same question and he said technically yes, but until BP does an ethanol brew, because they are a sponsor of ST, then they will be quite happy running unleaded 98 octane. The engine is also 11.5 compression ratio, like 1.5 higher than the Aussie SC engines, so that may also have something to with them keen to stay on what they know.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

...surely there should be no shortage of people wanting to buy one to run in the cheaper, better attended (with one NZST fan suggesting there was a rumour of 10k ticket sales in a week) and incentivised ($50k Scholarship, plus test drives in the new car)championship??

But it's not really a Scholarship, which is a grant or payment.

To quote Mr Petch "Appreciate your support for our Series, just wanted to clarify that we are not offering a $50,000 grant as such.

What we are offering is 5 different V8Challange Cup competitors the chance to test drive the V8ST prototype on each of the 5 race day's, and the winner of the scholarship, 2 days of driver tuition, in our prototype V8ST with Greg Murphy.

We value that to be worth at least $50,000."

[GizzFan]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

But it's not really a Scholarship, which is a grant or payment.

To quote Mr Petch "Appreciate your support for our Series, just wanted to clarify that we are not offering a $50,000 grant as such.

What we are offering is 5 different V8Challange Cup competitors the chance to test drive the V8ST prototype on each of the 5 race day's, and the winner of the scholarship, 2 days of driver tuition, in our prototype V8ST with Greg Murphy.

We value that to be worth at least $50,000."

well it might not be like $50k in your back pocket, but to spend hours driving somebody else $200K race-car around over two days and being taught by Murph has to be worth a bunch of money in anybodies language doesnt it?

[mountainstar]

How many cars are they expecting for this V8 Challenge series?

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by GizzFan

well it might not be like $50k in your back pocket, but to spend hours driving somebody else $200K race-car around over two days and being taught by Murph has to be worth a bunch of money in anybodies language doesnt it?

Yes of course it is. I was simply clarifying the "Scholarship" matter because there have been a lot of inaccurate assumptions made about it, that's all.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Where did you hear about Toyota building a V8?

That's not how Toyota thinks.

Originally Posted by GizzFan

Before i do as you suggested, can you tell me which Toyota components that V8SC and NZV8's have in them, or was that one drag to many?

well this one time, at bandcamp, down Sutherland Shire way in glorious Sydney, there was a V8 Supercar, allegedly in Vodafone livery, with a Toyota badge on it...

[Mr Revhead]

My comment about how Toyota thinks was in relation to Toyota NZ and V8st. Not TMCA and V8 Supercars

Ah, so 888 slapped a camry badge on a Falcon when Ford were dickng about with sponsorship?

But seriously, does anyone have any pics or anything more than "I heard...." A Toyota V8 prototype would be big news, and hard to hide.

[GizzFan]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

My comment about how Toyota thinks was in relation to Toyota NZ and V8st. Not TMCA and V8 Supercars

.

I think any company that buys Formula Renaults, changes just a few bits of the body work, then sticks their engine in it and hangs their corporate name on wouldnt give a rats arse about a having a gm based engine inside a genuine Toyota clothed Camry V8ST, if they actually wanted to appeal to V8 petrol heads,and thats the issue I dont think they do.

Also, if V8SC were able to get Toyota Australia, they would also have to use V8SC neutral COFT engine, and im told by a Kiwi that worked for the outfit, cant think of the name, that its a DART engine copy of the Holden Motorsport engine, which means its a gm engine, according to its DNA.

[Mr Revhead]

Well first wrong you have in that statement is saying they bought Formula Renaults. The Tatuus TRS car is not Formula Renault car.
Single seater is a lot different from a Saloon. A Saloon is based on a road car. It needs to be identifiable with the road product.
Also if you had had any dealings with the powers that be at TNZ you would know full well they would not be keen on the V8ST class.

I heard that they will actually be closer in design to Dodge Hemi engines. With full electronic ignition to disguise the dizzy position so you can't tell it it's meant to be chev or Ford.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Well first wrong you have in that statement is saying they bought Formula Renaults. The Tatuus TRS car is not Formula Renault car.

Would you like a (very short) list of parts that aren't directly inter-changable?The single biggest difference is the location of the hard points at the rear of the tub to allow engine fitting.

I think what Gizz-fan is rightly saying is that Toyota worked a deal that benefitted significantly from Renault IP. And strenuously tried to deny the obvious.

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Single seater is a lot different from a Saloon. A Saloon is based on a road car. It needs to be identifiable with the road product.

With a saloon class the spectator recognition of something as a ToyHyundiMW shape IS the critical factor but all marketing revolves around the BRAND.

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Also if you had had any dealings with the powers that be at TNZ you would know full well they would not be keen on the V8ST class.

Would not or are not? Big difference.

TRS secured backing for 10 years starting in 05. Toyota NZ has had a GM change in that time. Their involvement is NZ racing will be seroiusly under review particularly given the very different economic climate we are now in.

I think Toyota NZ would get far greater 'bang for buck' by giving a small percentage of their current yearly spend to one or two competitors rather than funding BT's 3 ring catering service with race cars for dessert.

[Mr Revhead]

You make it sound as if they ripped of a Formula Renault and tried to say they made it themselves. Can you make the TRS or FR chassis meet the rules of the other class?
Anyway that is all beside the point, his point was using the TRS (as a rip off) was proof Toyota don't care about the chassis/engine of the race cars. That is not true.

You are missing the point. TNZ will not at all be interested in a silhouette class widely PROMOTED as using another makes engine. Ignore practical bang for buck etc. The fact is it will not be a Toyota so the best you can hope for is maybe some money flicked towards a team for sponsorship rather than an official TNZ involvement.
Brand image is everything to Toyota. Ever noticed how you can't buy a Toyota flag like you can Ford etc? because TNZ do not want people to be able to fly a flag somewhere TNZ may not like.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

You make it sound as if they ripped of a Formula Renault and tried to say they made it themselves. Can you make the TRS or FR chassis meet the rules of the other class?

Class rules prevent that. My point is that one or the other could easily be converted to accept whatever engine.

TRS were VERY uncomfortable about confronting the reality of what their cars were. If they had any balls they would have 'manned up' and said so what?

Toyota NZ are masters of missing the promotional mark and leveraging benefit from what they do.

You are missing the point. TNZ will not at all be interested in a silhouette class widely PROMOTED as using another makes engine. Ignore practical bang for buck etc. The fact is it will not be a Toyota so the best you can hope for is maybe some money flicked towards a team for sponsorship rather than an official TNZ involvement.

Exactly my point. By putting a small proportion of their current spend to one or two teams would reap massive benefits. Market share and external pressures will shape marketting decisions. The device of unofficial factory supported teams is as old as racing itself.

Brand image is everything to Toyota. Ever noticed how you can't buy a Toyota flag like you can Ford etc? because TNZ do not want people to be able to fly a flag somewhere TNZ may not like.

I don't imagine there would be too many buyers...
Toyota have never had a problem with selling TRD branded and latterly pushing their TRS merchandising.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Ever noticed how you can't buy a Toyota flag like you can Ford etc? because TNZ do not want people to be able to fly a flag somewhere TNZ may not like.

I think you may find that it is Toyota policy world wide not just NZ

[Mr Revhead]

Your point was official TNZ paying to race V8ST's. My point was that won't happen, the closest (And I'd be amazed if it did happen) was for them to give some teams partial sponsorship.

I wish I could sell Toyota flags and take 5% of each one.
The problem with the TRS stuff is although they could put TRD stickers on the cars, they were not allowed by TRD to put TRD on the TRS merchandise.

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I think you may find that it is Toyota policy world wide not just NZ

Possibly, request never got that high lol

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

You make it sound as if they ripped of a Formula Renault and tried to say they made it themselves. Can you make the TRS or FR chassis meet the rules of the other class?
Anyway that is all beside the point, his point was using the TRS (as a rip off) was proof Toyota don't care about the chassis/engine of the race cars. That is not true.

You are missing the point. TNZ will not at all be interested in a silhouette class widely PROMOTED as using another makes engine. Ignore practical bang for buck etc. The fact is it will not be a Toyota so the best you can hope for is maybe some money flicked towards a team for sponsorship rather than an official TNZ involvement.
Brand image is everything to Toyota. Ever noticed how you can't buy a Toyota flag like you can Ford etc? because TNZ do not want people to be able to fly a flag somewhere TNZ may not like.

In regards to TRS, as I remember at the time, it wasn't any secret that the car was a Formula Renault and it was an intentional decision as Formula Renault was popular at the time around the world. You could also cut costs by using most of what already existed on the shelf and by using a similar car to Formula Renault, it would help those in NZ with dreams of open wheel success prepare themselves for Europe and maybe in return attract drivers from Europe as well. There was no ripping off involved as many independent race car manufacturers have open wheel formula designs that end up adapted for other manufacturers engines. No big deal really.

I'd never rule out Toyota as they went and made carbed 5.8 iron block V8 engines for Nascar which also uses a spec car with stickers slapped on the body. If they'll do that they will do anything.

As far as Toyota NZ goes, it all comes down to cost vs. benefit and if V8ST was a great success and it didn't cost a fortune to get involved, maybe they would.

As I have found in my dealings with automobile manufacturer marketing departments, people come and go, ideas come and go, strategies come and go and markets change. The end game for a marketing dept. is to sell cars, promote the brand and brand loyalty. And any type of motor racing involvement is always constantly evaluated.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I think you may find that it is Toyota policy world wide not just NZ

Here in the USA you can easily get Toyota flags and every assortment of merchandising bling direct from Toyota and TRD or from your local dealer.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Your point was official TNZ paying to race V8ST's. My point was that won't happen, the closest (And I'd be amazed if it did happen) was for them to give some teams partial sponsorship.

I wish I could sell Toyota flags and take 5% of each one.
The problem with the TRS stuff is although they could put TRD stickers on the cars, they were not allowed by TRD to put TRD on the TRS merchandise.

I didn't know the market demand was so high for toyota flags out there.

I don't think there are any signs right now Toyota is getting involved with V8ST, but i'd just never rule anything out.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

As I have found in my dealings with automobile manufacturer marketing departments, people come and go, ideas come and go, strategies come and go and markets change. The end game for a marketing dept. is to sell cars, promote the brand and brand loyalty. And any type of motor racing involvement is always constantly evaluated.

+1 that man.

[GizzFan]

[QUOTE=mountainstar;3005389

I'd never rule out Toyota as they went and made carbed 5.8 iron block V8 engines for Nascar which also uses a spec car with stickers slapped on the body. If they'll do that they will do anything.


.[/QUOTE]

you said it much better than me, but thats exactly my point, you are sooooooo right, which is why i dont have a lot of respect for Toyota's moral position on motor racing. If you talk to John Crawford, i am sure he would confirm that not only did Toyota NZ rip Formula Renault IP off, but then make their TRS owners pay twice as much for the exact same part that you can buy from FR.

I remember Kenny Smith telling me about how ****ed Renault were with Toyota nz that they would not let Brendon Hartley, race in their FR Series if he came back home to NZ and raced in the TRS series before hand.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by GizzFan

I remember Kenny Smith telling me about how ****ed Renault were with Toyota nz that they would not let Brendon Hartley, race in their FR Series if he came back home to NZ and raced in the TRS series before hand.

That is because FR is very strictly controlled and one is not allowed to test / drive one of the chassis irrespective of the power plant outside of the test / race window for the European Formula Renault series. It is not about being ****ed off with other manufactures using that chassis. It works the other way here too.

[Point2]

Anybody Actually asked Toyota NZ hq and got a official response?
This thread is turning TRS every day.