Melbourne F1 debate starts

[Casper]

I heard on the radio about an hour ago, so no link as yet, that the politicians in Melbourne are starting to take a good hard look at the rising cost of this event. Apparently according to the local ABC current affairs program Ron Walker had a two hour meeting with the new Premier of Victoria re the rising costs and it is assumed has been told to lower them substantially. Meanwhile the Lord mayor of Melbourne did an interview to air in which he echoed the same thoughts. It will be interesting to see where this goes My suspicion is that the newly elected government owes the anti F1 lobby a payment of some kind due to their electoral support and this will be that payment. Found a link...

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/con...1/s3121221.htm

[Oldtony]

We have FOTA, as an association ot teams pushing the idea that CVC are pulling too much out of the sport.
What happens if we finish up ith a Formula One Hosts Association representing the venues.
Could put the FIA on the spot, and make negotiating the new Concorde a heap more difficult.
And of course the news from Austria and Germany doesn't seem to help the CVC negotiating position.

[prepel]

If they ran more local competition instead of paying for imported racing they might save a few million here and there.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by prepel

If they ran more local competition instead of paying for imported racing they might save a few million here and there.

Some truth in this.....
If Melbourne became a V8 supercar round with some other supports, perhaps a world renowned classic car meeting as well..... (something like the Laguna Seca concours or Goodwood), it would cost them a fraction of the current $40 million and still be a significant event that would draw a couple of hundred thousand people.

Bernie has to realise that continuing to screw race venues is going to eventually backfire. The third world make continue to pay for a while but eventually they are going to wise up.
If Melbourne ran an event that paid $4 million in prize money (A tenth of what they underwrite the event for now) they would have every man and his dog wanting an entry.... and spectators galore.
LMS/ALMS/Indycar for the $4 million plus V8 Supercar and some classics, with say a featured make each year.... and an international classic car auction

Who would need F1?

[E.B]

We dont have a local product that runs anywhere remotely close to F1.

Every year we get this same old story about the Melbourne GP..... we have already had one thread discussing the reasons that we were all set to not have the GP this year, let alone from2015.

Every time we have a government change one side will be all about getting rid of F1, then we have them back down when the benefits are actually analysed in more depth..... income such as the just under 40% of the 50 million cost being returned almost instantly with the almost 20 million in sales and other taxes provided solely from GP related expenditure. Then you add in all the cost of air fares, accommodation, meals for the 1000 or so Team personnel, plus of course the tens of thousands of hotel rooms, meals, hire cars, entertainment and local purchases by the interstate and overseas visitors that swell Melbourne for the event.

Not to mention the increased numbers of people watching F1 overseas and the exposure of Melbourne to potential tourists, many of whom extend their GP trip with extended vacations not just in Melbourne but nationally.

Undoubtedly it is a cost to Melbourne, but the longer term financial benefits of having the GP are still way higher than the costs.

Other aspects that have threatened the AGP both long and short term since the end of the season are covered in an existing thread..... For those interested in reading of those aspects, (click) HERE

[Casper]

Anyone who thinks the V8"s are going to be the backbone of any significant event is dreaming, I think the last "international" meeting on the Gold Coast proved that, gee even their domestic audience is decaying each year as it is. Mind you it may appeal to a limited international audience as NASCAR does but it would be very small in real terms.

If the event is still to be car race based and when all the BS is put aside the F1 is about the only game in town that will provide the kind of international exposure that govt's like. The Yank open wheelers appear to have shot themselves in both feet so that option has disappeared.

As an afterthought I wonder when the next State election happens in Victoria, would it be about the same time as the F1 contract is about to be renewed? Now there is a further reason to get rid of it if it is.

There are some awesome roads in the North East of Victoria that are crying out for a World Rally Championship event to be run there, but that is dreamland stuff also as the Greenies would go ballistic as they have done on the NSW North Coast.

In the end I doubt if a new car race event would eventuate if the F1 were to end. There is too much political and community opposition these days and this has come about because the of F1 event has been basically rammed down people's throats by the like of Ron Walker who has never taken any prisoners so to speak. I wonder how much he personally gets out of it? The answer to that would be very interesting.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by E.B

Undoubtedly it is a cost to Melbourne, but the longer term financial benefits of having the GP are still way higher than the costs.

You cannot prove that and no one else can, if you can Ron Walker will pay you a lot of money as he can't either. This exact point was spoken about during the interview and if there was a way to prove this point then we would not be holding this discussion. It was always a presumption that initially the costs were out weighed by income but even that can't be proved though it was reasonable assumption at the time, new event, big audience = profit and exposure. You can bet that the these numbers have actually decayed as the event lost its "new" appeal and became just another F1 race. So that means the costs which have gone from one point something million to fifty something million is well behind the ball game.

[prepel]

No formula fords for 2011 gp, v8's to run a mini enduro.

I was involved in the 1996 - 2005 gp's, they were full of action and the track was never as quiet as it is today. I was a paid employee delivering a service that was later received free of charge. This service was primarily for the F1 drivers and still continues at every f1 race around the world.

Without this service there would be no race. There was very large penalties involved for non conformance at the gp.

I went to the 2010 gp and was astonished that some grand stands have disapeared, public ammenities were less. So why have we lost so much money compared to the original gp's.

[Sodemo]

As a non-aussie, in a way I hope Victoria tells Bernie to shove it. Then again, I do think Melbourne is one of the better venues, so I am torn. You can bet if Melbourne was replaced, it would be with another sterile, tarmaced-over car park of a track.

[Teretonga]

[QUOTE=Casper;2820223]Anyone who thinks the V8"s are going to be the backbone of any significant event is dreaming, I think the last "international" meeting on the Gold Coast proved that, gee even their domestic audience is decaying each year as it is. Mind you it may appeal to a limited international audience as NASCAR does but it would be very small in real terms.

I based my confidence on the Gold coast and adelaide events but if the audience is decaying it is the same world wide...
Motor racing is not what it was as a drawcard and it may simply have priced itself out of the ballpark as far as running major events is concerned.

People would rather pay $80-$120 for a rock concert.... Either way if there is so much opposition to the race as you maintain than its on borrowed time anyway. Only Bernies penalties for early cancellation are keeping it alive.

[Oldtony]

[QUOTE=Teretonga;2820566]

Originally Posted by Casper

People would rather pay $80-$120 for a rock concert

If you checked out the spectator interest in the V8s at the Gold Coast and Homebush that is exactly what a large percentage of them were doing. Probably a significant part of the Clipsalls attraction too.

The major problem standing in the way of the AGP remaining viable for Victoria is Bernie.

[Matt]

Phillip Island would be a great venue for the AGP.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Matt

Phillip Island would be a great venue for the AGP.

Not so sure I agree..... great track maybe, perhaps a bit short, but as a venue for an F1 GP it would be impossible. Phillip Island is only accessible from the mainland via a fairly narrow bridge of a couple of miles in length.

The logistics would make it impossible.

The traffic would be horrendous. The Moto GP round is bad enough and that is 90% people on bikes rather than cars.

It is a good couple of hours drive from Melbourne without traffic issues (and the airport is 40 minutes further away). Bernie doesn't even consider venues that far from civilisation.

Accommodation is at best scarce on the island and likely would not even be able to cater for the 1000 or so F1 personnel. As for eating.....

Spectator facilities are not up to F1 standards by some margin.

Im sure the locals might have something to say.... dont forget, Phillip Island is best known for its Penguin sanctuaries.

[NinnyMan]

It must be GP time, because at about this time every year the arguments of
getting rid of the GP come up. It's just like the Aussie Flag and Republic debate...
it only ever gets mentioned on Australia Day. I believe a GP probably only has a
shelf life of about 10 or so years (except places like Spa, Monaco and Monza)
before it all becomes the same and losses it's general appeal from its host citizens.

When the cost's of staging it continue to go up the question has to be asked is it
still viable? The other question is what event do you replace it with that will excite
the masses and bring in the same level or more revenue.

I agree with EB, Phillip Island has sooo much more against it then for it.
A dedicated track at Avalon might be better, but it too lacks accommodation and
physical appeal not too mention it's not that closer to Melbourne then the Island.

[Greem]

Not that it's even remotely likely to happen... but what about a double-header in Adelaide? V8SC one weekend, F1 the next? I'd go to that (but hopefully not as a paying punter...)

[wnut]

Originally Posted by NinnyMan

It must be GP time, because at about this time every year the arguments of
getting rid of the GP come up. It's just like the Aussie Flag and Republic debate...
it only ever gets mentioned on Australia Day. I believe a GP probably only has a
shelf life of about 10 or so years (except places like Spa, Monaco and Monza)
before it all becomes the same and losses it's general appeal from its host citizens.

When the cost's of staging it continue to go up the question has to be asked is it
still viable? The other question is what event do you replace it with that will excite
the masses and bring in the same level or more revenue.

I agree with EB, Phillip Island has sooo much more against it then for it.
A dedicated track at Avalon might be better, but it too lacks accommodation and
physical appeal not too mention it's not that closer to Melbourne then the Island.

You are probably correct eith your ten year shelf life for a GP, this is all the glamour and hype can be expected to keepth punter's interest. If you you want a life long commitment to the sport you would have to actually put on a good and exciting race year in and year out and god knows F1 has certainly forgotten how to do that.

As an alternative event Red bull Air Race?
Open class super modified sedan race with $5 million to the winner and lesser amounts down the field.

[sime1070]

Who says it would need replacing should it end in 2015? Mlebourne already has a host of international events (e.g. Tennis Open, Melbourne Cup Carnival) and also some national interest events (e.g. AFL Final Series) which bring in alot more people for less Govt. expenditure... Unfortunately the interest for the general public in motorsport is less than any of the events mentioned above... Alot of people really don't care. Pity all that money is being spent each year and at the (inevitable) end of the contract what long term benefits will Australian motorsport have? Not much...
Imagine what a difference even a small percentage of the 40-50million a year cost being pumped into lasting motorsport facilities / programs...

[Spritle]

Here's your out Melbourne: http://en.espnf1.com/australia/motor...ory/39061.html

I really hope they tell him to shove it! While I love the race, it is a colossal waste if it cost the taxpayers that much.

Austin should take note. With a US fan base that could care less and Bernie's greed, that venue will be lucky to last 10 years.

[Casper]

Bernie's Psychology to the fore again. Shove it right in their face and dare them to cancel it. Me, I would cancel the next one and watch him scream then, but that is fantasy stuff as it won't happen, they haven't got the gonads to do it. Yes the penalties and court cases would go on but it would take him years to get his money back if it ran through the courts. I don't suppose he can repossess Victoria if they refused to pay, maybe he has a lien on the state.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by wnut

Open class super modified sedan race with $5 million to the winner and lesser amounts down the field.

That would be BRILLIANT.

Everyone's gotta run the same tire though, and make sure it's something stupidly narrow.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by Spritle

With a US fan base that could care less

It's "couldn't care less" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCUsPnKD1gk

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by prepel

No formula fords for 2011 gp, v8's to run a mini enduro.

I was involved in the 1996 - 2005 gp's, they were full of action and the track was never as quiet as it is today. I was a paid employee delivering a service that was later received free of charge. This service was primarily for the F1 drivers and still continues at every f1 race around the world.

Without this service there would be no race. There was very large penalties involved for non conformance at the gp.

I went to the 2010 gp and was astonished that some grand stands have disapeared, public ammenities were less. So why have we lost so much money compared to the original gp's.

No FFs - that would be a shame, but not surprising given that F1 (like V8 supercars) has little interest in promoting anything other than itself, and CAMS (as usual) doesn't have the balls to do anything about it.

What "service" did you provide? Please explain!

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If Melbourne became a V8 supercar round with some other supports, perhaps a world renowned classic car meeting as well..... (something like the Laguna Seca concours or Goodwood), it would cost them a fraction of the current $40 million and still be a significant event that would draw a couple of hundred thousand people.

LMS/ALMS/Indycar for the $4 million plus V8 Supercar and some classics, with say a featured make each year.... and an international classic car auction

Who would need F1?

Originally Posted by E.B

Every time we have a government change one side will be all about getting rid of F1, then we have them back down when the benefits are actually analysed in more depth..... income such as the just under 40% of the 50 million cost being returned almost instantly with the almost 20 million in sales and other taxes provided solely from GP related expenditure.

Not to mention the increased numbers of people watching F1 overseas and the exposure of Melbourne to potential tourists, many of whom extend their GP trip with extended vacations not just in Melbourne but nationally.

Undoubtedly it is a cost to Melbourne, but the longer term financial benefits of having the GP are still way higher than the costs.

GT1 World Championship, IndyCar, Japanese Super GT, DTM... any would be much less expensive than F1, but none has the worldwide media coverage of F1. It's a 800hp advertisement of Australia. Since my country is very small, I don't understand well how these events are supported only by the host province/state and not the whole country. Ads in the bridges say Melbourne, but this far away from there, we feel that Australia is all like the Albert Park.

[cavvy]

The local (Albert Park) Federal Member of Parliament has had his say:
Melbourne should axe the Australian Grand Prix because it's too expensive and locals are fed up, federal parliament has been told.

Labor MP Michael Danby, whose Melbourne Ports electorate hosts the Grand Prix circuit, said he had polled 600 local residents about the Formula One race with a majority 10-1 opting to ditch the event.

He said Defence Minister Stephen Smith had confirmed the traditional F/A-18 flyover at the Grand Prix would be scrapped this year.

Mr Danby said his constituents were sick of blocked road access during the Formula One race and the loud noises from cars, crowds and flyovers.

Not sure if this applies elsewhere, but here its called the NIMBY syndrome, as in Not In My Back Yard.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...grand-prix-mp/

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Not sure if this applies elsewhere, but here its called the NIMBY syndrome, as in Not In My Back Yard.

Yep, we have that over here as well. That's why you can't race anything louder than a bicycle at Castle Combe any more and why the Brand Hatch Loop can only be used for a couple of race meetings per year.