Stop Moaning - Take Action

[Adrian Randle]

I've only been visting the forum for the last couple of weeks but over half of what I see is marshals moaning. Whilst as a fellow marshal I agree with some of the sentiments I can't help but think some of the proposed solutions are either drastic (strikes) or self defeating (stopping marshalling).

At the end of the day we marshal because WE enjoy it, not because someone makes us. This doesn't means we should just take everything that some of the race organisors impose, like very early starts, point less delays and unreasonable timetables.

We all belong to clubs that claim to be democratic. We should therefore make our presence felt at the relevant club AGM's this winter. But how many of us will?

We have a chance to use our voice at these meetings to address our concerns. I suggest we all take this chance. If they don't / won;t listen then other action is required.

Also if you think your club commitee is out of touch then VOTE THEM OUT !

This may sound a little strange, but if your unhappy let democracy work for you and change things from within.

[Pete Howarth]

At the end of the day we are volunteers. If you do do not want to marshal for a particular club or circuit, then don't volunteer. It's your choice.
Some years ago some clubs struggled to get marshals, now these clubs are now treating marshals better and getting good marshalling numbers.

[ascarracinguk]

i agree we have a choice to do it. noone is making us. if you hate doing it dont.

[Dave Brand]

I think what we're seeing here in a lot of cases is the good old British habit of moaning for the the sake of moaning.

The following is not addressed at any individual, nor is it a comment on anything which may have been posted here.....

We British are a nation of whingers. We are only happy if we can moan about something. We don't actually want to do anything to improve the situation - 'they' should do something about it, not us; all we want to do is find someone to blame for the situation we find ourselves in. And if we lived in a perfect world, we'd whinge about having nothing to whinge about.....

[Stephen Green]

We should remember that the guys at the 'top' of clubs such as the BMMC are also volunteers and therefore have to deal with club matters in their own time. It is my view that this itself causes problems within the framework of motorsport. By that I mean that many of the meetings that involve the MSA, circuit owners, organising clubs et-al take place during the working day. As volunteers it is difficult for those people from the BMMC to attend without taking their entire annual holidays on club matters.

Obviously there is no simple fix to this problem or it would have been done many years ago. The BMMC can't afford to pay full time employees unless they were to dramatically increase subscriptions, thereby offending the very members they represent.

Until this problem can be solved in some way, I don't believe the issue of marshalling will be taken too seriously at the highest level of the sport. In the meantime we will have to put up with poor and often dangerous working conditions or, do as others have suggested and stop marshalling.

The nett result of stopping marshalling is that the sport would suffer far more than it would were we to 'withdraw our services' on the odd occasion. Please don't think I am advocating a 'strike', I'm am merely trying to point out the downside to motorsport in general if we were to 'hang up the probans'.

[paul.hickman]

Whilst I have to agree that the British are prone to whinge, that is not the entire story. The welfare of the marshalling force is generally disregarded – and it has always been thus (at least in the 30 something years I have been marshalling…). But I am still marshalling – and generally enjoying the company of you folks.

BUT – we do need leadership and a spokesperson – and for many years that was he role envisaged for the BMRMC (now, of course, BMMC). As I have written often, that ‘high ground’ was taken by the MSA when they purported to licence and grade marshals (a role which, in my view, they have palpably failed in) and to some extent by the smaller circuit/club marshals clubs.

The name of Peter Roberts has appeared in Stoowerts notification of his 'resignation' from the BMMC recently and I would wish to highlight that he – and others from the BMMC, especially George Copeland – have been in high level discussion with the MSA et al as to the parlous state of British (certainly English) marshalling. This debate of course was exacerbated by the dreadful campsite conditions faced at the Silverstone Formula 1 race in July.

What I now wish is that the MSA make public the debate, thus far held in committee, and provide us marshals with their vision of marshalling for the future. We can then all join in constructive dialogue – not whinge – and make our own plans in the knowledge of what is expected of us and to us.

Just as a postscript I would add, as some of you know, that I have been in correspondence with George, the Chairman of the MSA and Octagon (with regard to Silverstone) and am re-assured that issues are being addressed. As said above, I believe that the time is now right for us to be let in on the debate.

[Stephen Green]

Splendid post Paul. There is very little to add other than to agree that it is high time we, the marshals, were informed of the outcome of the meetings. Sadly this is not the first time it has been suggested that the findings or discussions of meetings between the MSA and BMMC be made public. Oh sorry, that's another winge

[paul.hickman]

Stephen I didn't mean to imply that I'm the only one actually doing something - and I know you are not implying that. But I do feel another letter coming on to Colin Hilton of the MSA seeking an update to my previous correspondence and copying the debate on this thread....

Is there anything (polite...) that other marshals would wish me to discuss? Now is your chance ....

[Stephen Green]

I would like to know if there are plans for circuit owners to be required to improve the runways or walking areas between the armco and debris fence so that we are able to get to the scene of an accident as safely as possible? It would also be nice to know whether circuit owners will be encouraged to provide reasonable sized trackside huts or buildings where marshals are able to keep their belongings dry during race days? Both of these are I believe high on the agenda for most marshals and would stop a great deal of the winging we have been discussing recently.

[paul.hickman]

ok - it's on the list - what else folks???

[serverbrainfailure]

make it a solid requirement for all drivers to do a weekends marshalling when they start, and everytime they change series...
I'm fed up with drivers trying to run me over 'cos they have no clue what we are doing or why...

[serverbrainfailure]

move the catch fencing back at most race circuits so we have somewhere to run - i nearly got wiped out by a 205 last meet, we saw it coming - but only had apprx 1 metre to move backwards before we hit he fence

[Stephen Green]

I take it you mean the debris fence as catch fencing went in the 70's?.

[Stoowert]

Right! (metaphoric rolling up of sleeves...
1) Comunication! Can we have some? I didn't know there was a committee looking into the state of marshalling. Maybe my fault but...
2) Would it be possible to actually see the MSA representatives at race meetings? Too often they are remote and the Clerks keep them away from any feedback. I stopped a Stewards inspection at Brands the other week for a small thing I'm not going into here, and the Clerk driving the car was really upset! He said afterwards that you MUST NOT stop a Steward's tour for ANYTHING! I said I didn't know it was one, he said that if he had his lights on, then it's a Steward. I give up!
3) Better communication with race control. See my first 3,000 posts!
4) A comprehensive review of written reports, See my next 400 posts!
5) A minimum standard for the induction of new marshals. What is expected of them on their first few days trackside.
6) A minimum standard and number of reachable toilet facilities without having to sprint accross the track or consult a route map!
7) A large cork on each post to wedge in the mouth of any driver that puts his gob in gear while his brain is still moribund!
8) All ex-police to be given a medal for taking all the flak from other marshals
9) I can't think of anything else.
Enuff already!

[Dave Brand]

For those who haven't yet received their latest issue of 'Trackside', a comment from Peter Roberts on the Marshals Working Group: 'Fundamentally, we failed & for that I apologise to you.' He goes on to point out that the BMMC is now a member of the ABMRC & that progess is being made in addressing marshalling issues.

On the subject of posts in fora, newsgroups etc., he also asks that people email, phone or write to him so that things are not reaching him third hand.

I think we need to bear in mind that places such as ten-tenths are in the public domain; I've always worked on the principle that I will never say anything in public about a person that I wouldn't say to them.

[pinki]

How about circuit access for marshals cars and an instruction to the Octagon to tell their security staff not to treat like tresspassers.

[Woolley]

Part of the discussion here is about definition of moaning. As someone who has been quite voluble on the subject i may have given that impression, but those who know me will realise that is not the case.

This site has been excellent for sounding out opinions, stating a case, finding out I'm not alone in my thoughts, and starting to present some serious proposals.

I don't subscribe to the 'If you don't enjoy it, son't do it.' argument. I do enjoy it but there are a number of issues which unnecesarily affect that enjoyment which I would like adressing. Walking away is defeatist,and leaves even fewer volunteers, excacerbating the problem. The difficulty has always been to whom you speak. The knowledge that senior officials are reading this site means that a good vox pop survey is happening and the issues will be seen as general and not a few whingers. Peter Roberts comments in the newsletter are encouraging.

I won't repeat my views again - you've all seen them and hopefully recognised some conclusions forming. In short, if action is going to be taken, fantastic, even if it's only a little at a time, and anyone who can gain the ear of those who need to hear will receive my fullest support. Good Luck!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by pinki
How about circuit access for marshals cars and an instruction to the Octagon to tell their security staff not to treat like tresspassers.

Beware of generalisations! While that may be your experience at certain circuits, it's not the same everywhere.

The Octagon circuit I have most experience of is Oulton Park. Access for marshals is easy - in fact, at some of the larger meetings, Lodge Gate is opened for the exclusive use of marshals. I have never found any of the staff at Oulton anything but friendly & helpful. Maybe we do things differently 'ap nawf'?

[Brushpusher]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Beware of generalisations! While that may be your experience at certain circuits, it's not the same everywhere.

The Octagon circuit I have most experience of is Oulton Park. Access for marshals is easy - in fact, at some of the larger meetings, Lodge Gate is opened for the exclusive use of marshals. I have never found any of the staff at Oulton anything but friendly & helpful. Maybe we do things differently 'ap nawf'?

I agree with you Dave, I mainly frequent Brands, Lydden and Snetterton and have had no difficulty in gaining access to the circuits - With one notable exception, I arrived at the main gate at Brands to Marshall a test day for BEMSEE, all clad in bright orange probans, to be greeted by a security chappie who said "Are you a marshall then?" - Still made me chuckle.

On a serious note folks, could the MSA assist in the recruiting of new marshalls( Perhaps a stand at larger meetings sponsored by them rather than relying on the goodwill of existing marshalls.)

[rick vaux]

Brushpusher, you have reminded me of the time at Silverstone, we had just dealt with the Steve Bell incident in the mini`s, Upset, confused plus all the other emotions that go with dealing with a fatality, plus being rather wet. well we were asked to attend a debreif in the FIA office , top floor of race control.
So up we all plodded, only to get through the door and be asked by the suit at the desk " who are you " "dustmen mate " i think was my reply.....

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Brushpusher
On a serious note folks, could the MSA assist in the recruiting of new marshalls( Perhaps a stand at larger meetings sponsored by them rather than relying on the goodwill of existing marshalls.)

The Cheshire Motorcycle Marshals Association had a stand at the last BSB meeting at Oulton, which resulted in a lot of new recruits. Having had five of them on post with us at the last Bemsee meeting at Oulton, I can say that not only was the quantity good, so was the quality.

Recruitment of marshals is crucial to the future of the sport, be it two wheels or four (not forgetting the three wheel brigade!). Speaking from personal experience, it's not easy to get information on how to get into marshalling; maybe that's a test of would-be marshals' determination?

[pinki]

My comments about parking within the circuit were aimed at our very own Brands Hatch on some of the larger meetings. Yes I can normally wag my way in as I work there mid-week now and again but when the top paddock is empty and marshals are forced to park in the triangle I find this very petty.

Also the regular guys on the back gate are not the problem (they never give the marshals any grief), it's when outside security are brought in for the above mentioned larger meetings, they just love turning people away.

[Brushpusher]

Originally posted by pinki
My comments about parking within the circuit were aimed at our very own Brands Hatch on some of the larger meetings. Yes I can normally wag my way in as I work there mid-week now and again but when the top paddock is empty and marshals are forced to park in the triangle I find this very petty.

Also the regular guys on the back gate are not the problem (they never give the marshals any grief), it's when outside security are brought in for the above mentioned larger meetings, they just love turning people away.

The two regular guys are as good as gold at Brands. I often bring my Wife & Son along to meetings and they park on South Bank, usually to keep dry or warm and so that they can watch from the car. On occasions, visiting security don't know where South Bank is! Whilst on the subject of Brands, what is going on with those bloomin' red and white barriers forming a slalom at the main entrance?

[Stoowert]

I've been told by Robin Murphy that the organising club tells Brands Security where the marshal's parking should be, so we could be having a bark up the wrong tree here! The Jobsworths on the paddock gates near the Kentagon take a bit of beating, stopping marshals coming OUT of the paddock!

[Stephen Green]

Thanks for that Stewart.

Could I ask you all to think of improvements that can be made in general terms so that when Paul compiles his letter he has the broader problem to hand. If get embroiled with specific circuits then the content of the letter will get diluted and as such have less impact.

Many thanks...