[LM24 Race] How did Peugeot win, or how did Audi lose?

[Dunlop Corner]

I am quite shocked by Audi's performance. First they didn't have the car dialed in, from the start, the drivers complaining of too much understeer. It took several stints and front changes to get the balance needed to run in the 27-28's constantly. Then the radiator problem. Several times they made temporary fixes, before eventually finding the real cause of the problem and solving it. After a couple of decent stints, they ran into the ECU problems and the final nail was the wheel bearing problem.
Their pace was below Peugouts. Their setup was wrong. Their car ran into wierd problems they did not manage to fix immidiately.

Compared to how amazingly well the car ran at Sebring, this was really surprising and very un-Audi. It seemed to me the guys did all they could, but were let down by poor preparation. That recurring radiator problem is simply something they should have solved before the race!
In the old days, we used to say that Audi raced while Peugout just practiced their cars. This made Audi more adept and sharp in the races. But now Audi has almost refused to race the R15, and today that decision bid. Some more experience with the car, and i think Audi could have used it's potential better. I think the R15 is ultimately a bit slower than the 908 particularly at Le Mans, but i don't think even Audi Team Joest managed to bring the best out of their equipment. Which they almost always manage to do.

Congratulations to Peugout. The #8 car was clearly the fastest on the track, and the #9 ran really consistantly. They were able to always edge away from the Audi, and in the end Audi never managed to turn the tide. A very good performance from Peugout, that was so much more sharp on the strategy side than last year.
I was a bit disappointed that the #8 was not allowed to attack the #9, i would have loved to see the all french car win. They cut down the gap quite rapidly from 3 minutes to about 1:40, but then when Audi fell helplessly behind, Peugout held their places and slowed the pace. A bit of a disappointment, since Audi always had their cars race each other internally. But i understand how important just getting the win was for Peugout.

Congratulations to Aston Martin for a very fine performance. I had not seem them get one car through the race without major delay. A fine pace and reasonably good reliability, a Le Mans debut they can be more than proud of.

A real shame for Pescarolo losing the Pug like that. Fortunally it looks like Treleuyer was lucky. The Pesca Pug did not lose much time after the first pitstop (totally the Peugouts own fault). It ran fast and reliably until the crash, a real bugger.
Also Kolles did really well, their cars rising as the fast petrol cars ran into problems. They were around 6-7 with both cars, until they began to run into problems sunday morning. Particularly well done by Lotterer and Zwolsman.

Essex completely dominated their more famous opponents Goh. Essex was faster and it was Goh who blinked first and got into problems. A really nice race for the Essex Porsche to get to 10th overall. A well deserved win. Apart from that great drive, the reliability of the LMP2s were rather sad.

GT1 was a joke from the start. Although the Vettes proved a nice battle throughout, they was noone in it. That the Aston made the podium after such a problematic run, is a joke (but well down to them for getting to the end!).

Porsche was a disaster in GT2. Again. I have no words for losing their works car after some 25 laps. And the backups in IMSA and Lizard ran into major problems as well. You really expect the Porsche GT2 to do better at Le Mans!
Well done to Risi, grapping the lead at evening and never making a mistake to let other cars in it. A flawless and dominant win. The rest of GT2 was a bit of a Ferrari lottery. And good job getting to the end from Spyker, a huge improvement over last year's pathetic effort.


All in all i don't feel the race turned into the classic it should have been. Audi and Porsche GT2 did just not deliver. But a very fine performance from Peugout, denying Audi to get a chance.
A great win is measured on how tough opposition it faces (like Audi last year). Unfortunately Audi did not challenge Peugout as hard as one could have hoped for. Not a classic (like last years), but a good race and very fine win by Peugout.

[Adam43]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...95#post2483095
I've taken some posts out of the main thread so that we can have a dedicated thread to discuss interesting aspects of the race.

I chose the thread title because that seemed to be the feeling of the race for the last two years. Both years one team won it, but also a team lost it. If you see what I mean.

[ger80]

Think Audi had too many projects this year with N24, DTM & LM and probably the smallest budget compared to the last years. Without the test day this year they would have got usefull informations from a LMS race like Spa

[dxk1]

This is a good question. But I think the answer is fairly obvious. The Peugeot was a better car for Le Mans. The best passing areas require speed and the Peugeot had it while relative to the Peugeot, the Audi did not. However, this is not different than the last two years when Peugeot lost. The one big factor was, Peugeot didn't make as many blunders as they have in the past (the #17 hitting the #7 aside) and the "luck" factors seemed to go their way this time. I believe most of Audi's problems stemmed from the fact that they had to run faster than they wanted to and became aware quite early on that this Peugeot effort was going to be much smarter than in the past. Sure, Audi could have made a better car, but that is always the song of those that don't win. All-in-all I would say it was a Peugeot win rather than an Audi loss. The second big strategy improvement was the decision to keep the #9 running "in control" so to speak. Even when McNish was closing on them near the midway point, they kept their cool and didn't overdrive the car. I believe, in the end, this won the race.

DK.

[ianroke]

I think Audi lost it by bad preparation. Klien was asked about this on Eurosport and he said that they were well prepared because they raced in the LMS.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by ianroke

I think Audi lost it by bad preparation. Klien was asked about this on Eurosport and he said that they were well prepared because they raced in the LMS.

You know, ordinarily I would agree with you on this, but Audi is one of the most experienced teams ever and Peugeot only ran one race more. I doubt it made that big a difference. Remember Aston Martin won GT1 last year having run no races at all and they beat one of the absolute best teams who had been racing and who were fully prepared. I believe Audi underestimated Peugeot and just weren't ready for such a good effort that was so well planned and executed.

DK

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by dxk1

You know, ordinarily I would agree with you on this, but Audi is one of the most experienced teams ever and Peugeot only ran one race more. I doubt it made that big a difference. Remember Aston Martin won GT1 last year having run no races at all and they beat one of the absolute best teams who had been racing and who were fully prepared. I believe Audi underestimated Peugeot and just weren't ready for such a good effort that was so well planned and executed.

DK

But all of your comaprrisons here are teams that had been running the same car for a few years prior, Audi had a brand new car, they just did not know the R15 as well as they thought.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

But all of your comaprrisons here are teams that had been running the same car for a few years prior, Audi had a brand new car, they just did not know the R15 as well as they thought.

With much less time in the car and knowing it much less, they won Sebring! They had three extra months to figure things out going into Le Mans. Peugeot just beat them fair and square.

DK

[jab]

The main problems seemed to be coming with the muck going into the radiators and the various nooks and crannies in the car, and that is a problem you can only learn about by racing. You're not going to find out about that just pounding round Paul Ricard all day because there just isn't enough marbles and debris to provide an accurate simulation of a 24 hour race

Peugeot won because they had 2 years of racing with the car. It's the reverse of the situation in 2007 when they first turned up and had reliability problems. Perhaps after the flawless debut of the R10 we expected too much from the R15 straight away because it was a one-off - most other new cars have teething problems, and the R15 is no exception. They are humans after all. But they'll be back next year

[dxk1]

Perhaps so, but the Peugeot would have beaten the Audi anyway since it was just a faster, better race-car for Le Mans and they finally didn't lose it themselves.

DK

[jab]

Well it wasn't faster for the whole race. I remember there was one point last night when TK was in the 1 and Brabs was in the 9, and TK was closing relentlessly. I was thinking "here we go again"

Plus the lack of pace for the Audi had something to do with understeer caused by the debris, which again comes back to preparation

[NightStalk3r]

I personally think the key change that won it for Peugeot this year is one Mr Quesnel.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

I personally think the key change that won it for Peugeot this year is one Mr Quesnel.

I agree, he kept their noses clean and kept blunders to a minimum. I believe it was also his thinking to make the #8 and #7 rabbits and let the #9 run a nice even pace. Excellent strategy.

DK

[TheKimme]

When audi # 1 was running full speed it nearly always was the fastest(according to danish tv)

[Adam43]

It was nearly on the Peugeot pace, from what I remember, rather than faster. Sometimes when fuel loads and tyre wear allowed it would ahve a few laps ahead of teh leading Peugeots.

[chernaudi]

Running more races may've helped Audi, as well as more dry weather testing. But I feel that the R15 isn't quite yet 100% up to the task for running at Le Mans as far as brute speed is concerned.

The 908 was designed for Le Mans as it's primary goal. Audi designed the R15 more twords the ALMS/LMS. That means that the R15 is more of a high downforce car, and that and it's mechanical and aero grip and weigh distrubution made it easy to drive and(as seen from the Pugs' onboards) gave the R15 blistering cornering speeds. But at LM with the long straights, more downforce means more drag usually, and LM isn't a handling track. If this were Sebring all over again, or a track like Spa or Road America, Road Atlanta, or Mosport, the R15 likely would've had the edge. But the 908s had too much straightline speed at LM for the R15 to claw back completely.

More dry testing and an extra race or two may've helped, but Audi may've also been better served to test the R15 at a track like Monza than Paul Ricard-Monza is more like Le Mans than Paul Ricard anyways.

[gwyllion]

My take on this: Audi lost Le Mans because they won Sebring. In Sebring everything went too smooth. The R15 had excellent reliability during its debut with limited testing. It would have been better if they would have had more problems at Sebring. Perhaps they would have done more testing and races...

The cancellation of the test day and the rainy free practice also did not help.

I also think that Audi suffered a lot from the rule changes for this year. They designed an open prototype because this allows for faster driver changes, but then ACO decided to slow tyre changes down. They also designed the car to be a lot under the 900 kg limit, so they had more freedom to move the ballast around, but then ACO partially toke away their advantage with the extra 30 kg.

[JAG]

I'd say this will go down as a classic race due to the pressure Peugeot were under to break Audi's dominance of the event.

For a period Audi looked unbeatable, but Peugeots performance, and Aston Martin on a limited budget, have shown Audi can be pushed and beaten.

[ianroke]

Originally Posted by dxk1

With much less time in the car and knowing it much less, they won Sebring! They had three extra months to figure things out going into Le Mans. Peugeot just beat them fair and square.

DK

I agreed with all your comments until the last one. I would agree IF Audi were racing flat out the whole race which they didn't because of problems with setup and electronics towards the end. Before they had problems I believe they were only a minute or so behind the Peugeot that assumed the lead when the lead car had problems.

I still feel they haven't had long enough to understand all the nuances of the R15.

[ianroke]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The 908 was designed for Le Mans as it's primary goal. Audi designed the R15 more twords the ALMS/LMS.

I don't get why they did that then only raced it at Sebring? I'm pretty sure the R15 was created to run with the Peugeots on pace. Don't forget that the R15 had two aero configurations I am led to believe - high downforce for Sebring and low configuration for Le Mans. The Le Mans race is the big one for them and I think they are hurting now Peugeot have won.

Nothing against Peugeot though I am pleased they have finally got it nailed. On pace alone I don't think Audi have ever been able to touch them so you could say that the ACO rule changes have made it easier dare I say for them to win?

[HORNDAWG]

Hmm, third year for the 908, so (should be) a well developed chassis. They bring in new program manager, one who has winning experience.

R-15 is brand new chassis, and then the horse manure with Porsche brings progam cuts from the board. So now the R-15 gets no real world devel. because of politics.

Seems rather simple to me, Peugoet finally put together a serious plan for the race and did an excellant job at execution of said plan. While the Boardroom dealt Audi Sport a pretty funky hand, yet IMO they actually acquitted themselves quite well all things considered. Could they have done a better job? Maybe. Will the issues be there next time we see the R-15 in action? Even a betting man would have to say, no! All these vacillating speculations that Audi is now a washed up has been and Peugeot is now the replacement for the uber team are a wee bit out of sorts and way premature!!!!




L.P.

[broadrun96]

Felt like it was a Pug win at LM with the toys each team brought but Audi may have been better served with a race or two more to shake the R15 down more. If it hadn't rained maybe it woulda come out different since Audi may have cured the understeer before the green flag and Pug couldn't build that lead early in the race.

[gwyllion]

If Audi would have started with a better setup, they still would have ran into the overheating and reliability problems. Perhaps Premat and Luhr would not have had their off.

[ianroke]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

If Audi would have started with a better setup, they still would have ran into the overheating and reliability problems. Perhaps Premat and Luhr would not have had their off.

I thought they had suspension/tyre failure in the Porsche curves?

[cmk]

Audi lost because they had a new car that was relatively untested, and crucially they lost both the normal test day and a significant amount of dry running on Wednesday night. The upper echelons of the team have said as much, and that's the reality that played out. They went up against a car that had already run at La Sarthe two years in a row and was at the apex of its development. Just think of the improvements in the R10 and especially the 908 in 3 years, and you will come to realize that the R15 is far from a dog. It's just that when they brought the R10, there was not a credible opposition like Peugeot in the first year, so the imperfections didn't show. This year they did, and the result was thus.

I actually don't believe the lack of running in the ALMS was a significant contributor (they didn't run the R10 in this situation either, nor the R8)...maybe running in the LMS might have helped, but I think what we're looking at here is the effect of lost running at La Sarthe itself. This is not the demise of Audi, far from it. This is Audi finally getting caught in a weak phase of their development cycle by a team that has finally put together the run necessary to win one of the biggies (Sebring, PLM, LMS, LM) with the faster car after 1.5 years of trying! They'll punch back, and I would be shocked if they don't get a knockout.