Ranking – top 10 single-seater championships

[strider]

Of course as a long-time F3 fan I have to agree with chunterer and bella.

I'm still curious to see what happens to GP3 in the long term. I've already said I think F2 has a finite existence and that's despite having been to see a meeting lately. They put on a good show and it's all very slick, as you would expect of JP, but that's the long and short of it. Oh, except you don't have bickering team managers!

[formula_fan]

I agree with Bella, which series is better does depend on drivers ambitions and other factors. I don't think FR 3.5 is too close to GP2 at the moment though, however we will wait to see what happens with this new car for next year.

I think GP3 is stronger than F3 this year. British F3 doesn't have a very strong field and Euroseries has only maximum of 14 cars on the field and neither F3 series have anywhere near as good a calendar. GP3 at least this year has 2 practice sessions which are invaluable to drivers. A 30 car grid is also strong.

I disagree with Strider, I think F2 is looking quite strong this year, a full grid and probably more talent on offer than F3 in my opinion.

[bothfeetin]

Interesting... don't we need to first and foremost think about where to begin? I also think that budgets is the most important item these days for a young driver. It's all fine and good to see the ladder approach but if the budget dictates, as with so many real hard charging drivers, the way they need to go, then we all must re-think the path to F1.

All the "duplicating" race series do not help anyone as the budgets to run in them do not compete with each other but kind of paint confusion into the picture of driver development and ability.

To the issue of Asia - since there is only Japan with a couple of decent open wheel series, forgetting for a moment the new JK Asia and FPC series, I cannot believe that it will help any driver to go to Asia past the initial years of his/her career. So, my ladder looks like this - JK Asia, Formula Pilota China (FPC) (Abarth), F3 Japan and then over the pond to Europe finding a series within the budget, regardless of what series!

The demise of FBMW had a lot of input - think we all have to agree on that - for the initial start up.

[JackN]

I think we are unanimous in thinking that GP3 is a bit rubbish. Bella makes a good point, if you're a young driver and want to take sponsors and guests to events, you are going to be pretty hard pushed I'd imagine, because the bill is so F1 centred. Thats the advantage of FR3.5, F2 and F3, not to mention the cars

Am I the only one who thinks the single team ethos of F2 is actually really cool? Brit F3 cars and GP2 cars are in theory all very similar, but we all know that if you are in a good team it gives you a much better chance of winning, whereas already this season in F2 we have seen drivers proving they have skills that would otherwise have gone unnoticed, if they didnt have the budget for a Carlin etc. Surely this is an invaluable asset for GP2/Fr3.5 teams trying to find drivers who are actually decent, and not just rich? Or is that just incredibly naive of me to think that GP2 teams are on the look out for talent and not wallets? I'm not for any minute suggesting F2 is rivalling GP2 or anything like that, but in principle it seems like a pretty good idea to me.

British F3 is - I reckon - the pinnacle of F3 in Europe. It's a very close fight with British and Euroseries, although I would suggest Euroseries seems a little more F1 centred? British F3 champions have gone on to race a much wider variety of cars than just focussing on F1 as the career goal. I'm incredibly looking forward to commentating on the Brands meeting later this month, and the progress of recent Champions proves that it is still a very relevant series. Therefore this is my 'ladder' driver progression to F1

-------F1--------
------GP2--------
--FR3.5---F2 (with Fr3.5 above, but its more than possible to go F2-GP2)
-----GP3--F3----
------FR2.0------
------FFord------

[Banger racer]

Some really great comments - glad I posted this!

Saw an interesting article in Motorsport Magazine the other day, kind of discussing the same thing. Be worth a look!

Just looking over some of the comments...think I agree with formula_fan about F2 - does offer a decent package and of course an F1 test which at the end of the day, isn't that what it's all about?

Great comments though - glad I joined the forum!

[bella]

Originally Posted by JackN

Am I the only one who thinks the single team ethos of F2 is actually really cool? Brit F3 cars and GP2 cars are in theory all very similar, but we all know that if you are in a good team it gives you a much better chance of winning, whereas already this season in F2 we have seen drivers proving they have skills that would otherwise have gone unnoticed, if they didnt have the budget for a Carlin etc. Surely this is an invaluable asset for GP2/Fr3.5 teams trying to find drivers who are actually decent, and not just rich? Or is that just incredibly naive of me to think that GP2 teams are on the look out for talent and not wallets? I'm not for any minute suggesting F2 is rivalling GP2 or anything like that, but in principle it seems like a pretty good idea to me.

this is kind of an interesting one, even if i think we're going outside the scope of the thread a bit, but it's my party and i'll waffle if i want to

the one team ethos is a great thing to have in the "system". however, i think it's worth emphasising the importance of a driver's chemistry with an engineer. of course, you have to learn how to work with people you don't want to in preparation for f1, but if you're an engineer in f1 you're pretty good at man management anyway (look at rob smedley, or 'rocky' at red bull with sebastian vettel). you also know what you're doing.

part of selecting a team in the non-f1 stuff is having a test, and seeing how you gel with an engineer. if it works, you sign up and get your wallet out. so you might not end up with a team who has established results, but if you get on well with your engineer and you understand each other then they're going to be better for you as a driver. equally going the other way, if you've got a kid testing with you who might be quick but is a bit of a dunce and doesn't know anything at all... he'll be a second choice!

i worry a little that f2 completely negates the importance of that link, and as such can end up ruining a drivers season because of a couple of races where he ended up with an engineer he didn't get on well with, or who didn't understand where he was coming from. but that's just one of the negative aspects to a one-team system, just like the normal multi-team system has its disadvantages too!

having said that i don't believe it's a good way forward to use as your only "training" method. i'm sure there are people who have made it work for them but if you're looking at the general use to a good, but needs to learn driver... it's a second choice rather than an active career decision, surely?

[peebee2]

There is so much misunderstanding about F2.

It possibly has its place, but nobody should confuse whether is replaces or is better than F3, or even FR2.0. As well as the engineering and development expertise, the mileage and seat-time in F2 is just a tiny fraction of the likes of most, if not all, F3 series - with most F3 drivers dfoing more mileage pre-season than in a whole season of F2.

It is perfect as a last-chance formula for those who have been higher, gained experienced but haven't quite made it, like Andy Soucek.

Without the experience in the likes of a decent F3 team you are unlikley to be successful, perhaps with one or two exceptions.

Take Magny Cours' double winner. Did he have the budget for anything else? Who knows, but, for sure, he wouldn't be winning in F2 without having done 44 races in F3, with the lessons he got there along the way.

[JackN]

I agree entirely with you Bella about race engineers. But in the classic career path you work with an engineer in Formula Ford, Formula Renault 2.0, 3.5, GP3, GP2 and F1. If you make it to F1, you're going to already have had plenty of experience working with engineers, I dont see why one or two seasons just focussing on your driving is a bad thing?

Let's take peebee2's example of Zanella, of course he wouldnt have been a good driver without his F3 experience, in the same way that no one can be a good driver without experience. I am not suggesting for a second that F2 replaces F3. But if (and I dont know the details here, just speculating) he did not have the budget for one of the big teams in F3 in the past, but he still learned the lessons, what is wrong with him being able to join F2, pay the same price as Ferrari F1 test drivers, GP3 podium finishers, Fr3.5 race winners and beat them all on SHEER SKILL, not because he could afford to join a bigger/better team. As a result of beating respected opponents , his stock goes up, more opportunity for sponsors, if he wins the Championship an F1 Test Drive, and he can move up the ladder. Surely that's actually a really really fair system?

Obviously this isnt an F2 topic, apologies that it has kind of gravitated that way!!

[strider]

The two posts prior to the last one pretty much sum up my own view of F2. It does have its place in single-seater racing but not with that name.

I was talking to the guys who had timed the pre-season tests for BF3, GP3 and F2. GP3 is about a second a lap faster than BF3 (but sounds even worse!) and F2 another second a lap faster. But, as Alex Brundle found, you learn so much more in BF3 and now he has gone back to F2 and is doing well.

The biggest objection I have to F2 is the one I have mentioned before. A driver starts off with a single engineer who he shares with two other drivers, and the same engineer doesn't necessarily stay with the same drivers all the way through.

Worse still, if you can afford it you are allowed to bring in your own personal engineer and that must give you an edge over the others. Andy Soucek is a prime example.

[bella]

Originally Posted by JackN

I agree entirely with you Bella about race engineers. But in the classic career path you work with an engineer in Formula Ford, Formula Renault 2.0, 3.5, GP3, GP2 and F1. If you make it to F1, you're going to already have had plenty of experience working with engineers, I dont see why one or two seasons just focussing on your driving is a bad thing?

but is it focussing on your driving? if you only make a good connection with your engineer for half the races and you can't get the car to do what you want for those races then you're either driving around the problem or just driving slower. the solution is to bring in a guy you've worked with before and who is able to spend the weekends with you.

which kind of defeats the whole point anyway!

it might be "fair", but it relies on all of the f2 engineers being f1-quality in terms of management ability... and that's a best-case scenario. if you've made a bad choice of team in a normal series then it's your lesson to learn, but when you take such an essential piece of the jigsaw out of your own control...

i totally see your point but it's like saying that you'll swap cars every 2 races, and each one will have something wrong with them but you're not allowed to replace it. you just have to hope you don't get the one with a dodgy engine.

EDIT: anyway i don't want this to become a "why f2 is and isn't good" thread, we have plenty of those. it is a bit of a "marmite" formula though and its importance is certainly quite an... emotive topic!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bella

EDIT: anyway i don't want this to become a "why f2 is and isn't good" thread, we have plenty of those. it is a bit of a "marmite" formula though and its importance is certainly quite an... emotive topic!

Depends on whether you're talking about it in terms of 'toast' or in a (F3, GP3) 'sandwich'

Hey, that's not bad for me?!!

[bella]

don't give up your day job

(if a drivers career is toast it's definitely good. though it does need some assistance from butter. dilutes the initial product, yes, but it improves it )

[JackN]

Well if in a few year's time Zanella's career has progressed, simply because he was allowed to race technically advanced, powerful single seaters against top opposition at a reasonable price,then I will look smugly down upon all you non believers If he goes nowhere, then I'm wrong.

My basic point of view is, we all know that the 24 F1 drivers are not the best 24 drivers in the world, and anything we can do to make motorsport more affordable should be applauded.

Back on topic. GP3 sucks, right?

[bella]

Originally Posted by JackN

Well if in a few year's time Zanella's career has progressed, simply because he was allowed to race technically advanced, powerful single seaters against top opposition at a reasonable price,then I will look smugly down upon all you non believers If he goes nowhere, then I'm wrong.

and equally, if his performance suddenly drops off because he's not had the benefit of the same engineer, then i'll have to shake my head and note that it's all very well being able to race but if you aren't allowed to choose your own engineer then it's more or less a waste of a good driver.

or is he already paying for the pleasure of a second engineer? in which case.. not really in the spirit of the competition, as strider says, is it

yeah gp3 is totally pants. if i were a driver i'd be making sure somebody had put a classic 80s f1 engine noise on the radio for me to listen to instead of that crime of a racket

[ptclaus98]

I just heard a GP3 car in my neighborhood. Oh wait, nope, that was just a lawnmower.

[strider]

Getting back to this year's BF3 I agree that overall the entry is not as strong as in some years, but in Felipe Nasr and Kevin Magnussen there are two very fine drivers with high prospects.

If you want proof, Nasr is managed by David and Steve Robertson whose two previous charges were Jenson Button and Kimi Raikkonen, both of whom became WDC.

Magnussen is part of the McLaren Young Driver Programme, which, I suppose, began with Lewis Hamilton. 'nuff said?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by bella

but is it focussing on your driving? if you only make a good connection with your engineer for half the races and you can't get the car to do what you want for those races then you're either driving around the problem or just driving slower. the solution is to bring in a guy you've worked with before and who is able to spend the weekends with you.

which kind of defeats the whole point anyway!

it might be "fair", but it relies on all of the f2 engineers being f1-quality in terms of management ability... and that's a best-case scenario. if you've made a bad choice of team in a normal series then it's your lesson to learn, but when you take such an essential piece of the jigsaw out of your own control...

i totally see your point but it's like saying that you'll swap cars every 2 races, and each one will have something wrong with them but you're not allowed to replace it. you just have to hope you don't get the one with a dodgy engine.

EDIT: anyway i don't want this to become a "why f2 is and isn't good" thread, we have plenty of those. it is a bit of a "marmite" formula though and its importance is certainly quite an... emotive topic!

Bella, I think your thinking the engineers influence in F2 is a little to great. Basically the driver has setup control. He carries over his setup from race to race. Also all engineers have meetings so they know what is going on with all cars. Normally most cars end up on similar setups as the season progresses. A driver rarely has control over who his engineer will be, even in a team network. (Teams decision) A good engineer normaly has an influence on a weeker minded driver, where as a strong confident driver will get on no matter who engineers. I have also known several drivers to bring their own engineers when racing in a "normal " series. Its all about confidents and a really talented driver has this indepent of any other influence. (Arrogants even)

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by strider

Getting back to this year's BF3 I agree that overall the entry is not as strong as in some years, but in Felipe Nasr and Kevin Magnussen there are two very fine drivers with high prospects.

If you want proof, Nasr is managed by David and Steve Robertson whose two previous charges were Jenson Button and Kimi Raikkonen, both of whom became WDC.

Magnussen is part of the McLaren Young Driver Programme, which, I suppose, began with Lewis Hamilton. 'nuff said?

Would that explain why Double R hasn't been doing very well since the "Double R"s sold out last year, and Nasr and Magnussen are now with Carlin?

[strider]

It certainly explains the second half. Steve Robertson has been to at least two meetings so far and obviously has high hopes for Nasr, although Snetterton didn't go to plan.

Pre-season Double R were the fastest Mercedes-powered team but have since been overtaken by Fortec. I understand which Merc man maps the engines is important.