Do you think the UK could host a top-line single-seater series...?

[spider]

My passion and sector of employment is marketing, and I’ve always taken a great interest in that element of motorsport, studying series and how they position and promote themselves. Now, looking at Britain and our flagship series on 2 and 4 wheels, you’re looking at Formula 3 for single-seaters, BTCC for tin-tops and the British Superbike for 2-wheel-action.

In particular the BSB is booming at the moment, attracting Manufacturer backed teams and world class riders.

My question is, like Japan and America is the UK capable of running a top-line single-seater series? I know there have been previous incarnations with British F1/F3000/F2, but personally I believe if the series was correctly put together, in a sexy-GP2-style way, that it would be successful.

British Superbikes has big powerful machinery, the BTCC can attract top touring car talent to these shores and though F3 is all well-and-good, it is a youngsters category.

So could Britain establish a senior top-line powerful single-seater series? As I said, with the fascination surrounding A1’s debut at Brands I believe if properly promoted people would be interested in such a British series akin to Nippon/UK GP2…

[Rob29]

There have been several attempts,but the last one remotely successful was the Aurora F1 in 1979.
Theres a thread about a recent proposal here somewhere,forgotten what it was called but seems to have died anyway.

[bella]

i think it's interesting you mention gp2. in my opinion, gp2 marketing and their corporate identity seems to be aimed more at the drivers and potential drivers (and probably media) than the fans. after all, you can't really ask people to go to a f1 meeting to see gp2, it's just too expensive.

i think the success of a1gp was based mostly on curiosity. the marketing made it out to be a little more than it was, which was fine because the people attracted by the advertising rather than news in the media are the occasional fans who can't identify formula 3 (or for that matter, name gp2). it'd be very difficult to sustain a series on that curiosity, i think the racing would have to be absolutely superb to sustain it, and many many thousands would have to be thrown into the event organisation to make it something people don't forget once the initial curiosity has died down. it's not the motorsport fans that you'd have to worry about, more the vague supporters. prices would have to be fair, and to start with the names would have to be big.

having said that, in the current climate i don't think it's sustainable beyond a season unless serious effort was put into event organisation, entertainment etc. maybe ascar/whatever it's called now shows that there really isn't the market for it, regardless of how you market it.

then again, if you mention the gp2 brand, i think that's strong enough to support a rebranding of formula renault 2.0 to gp3 or whatever it would be called. when interest starts to die out a little, that would probably be a good way to renew interest in it, certainly with the increasingly growing fanbase amongst the f1 going public.

interesting thread, i'll be curious to see what angle others take on this and what everyone thinks

[Stephen Green]

An interesting question and an equally interesting reply from Bella.

In my opinion the UK is more than capable in running a major single seater series. However, I think there are lessons to be learnt from past attempts. For any series to be a success, it has to entertain! By that I mean not only the single seater series in question, but everything that forms part of the support package. The main series has to be something that will draw attention to itself through clever marketing of the drivers etc, and also by the cars being something spectators will want to see and listen to. This means that there would have to be a huge budget in place from the outset, surely a problem in itself in the current economic climate?

I believe A1GP had/has the right idea, but that's an international series. Another important factor would be for them to hold race meetings at all the major circuits in the UK/Ireland which is where Nascar went wrong in my opinion. There is no point in attracting paroquial support, it needs to be national.

As for the cars, I would suggest they need to be not only fast, but as loud as the current regulations permit. There needs to be overtaking and close racing for it to attract the publics interest.

I'm sure others will come up with yet more ideas but I believe the main criteria for success have been mentioned above.

[AstroBoy]

I think if British F3 is remarketed better it could fill gap you are talking about.

Look how popular it is at Zandvoort and Macau.

The rounds of the championship need to be promoted as events rather than just another race meeting.

Asian F3 does this and are now starting to get decent spectator numbers (20,000+ at the last event).

They have grid girls, stunt shows, podium celebrations, press conferences, race week media activities, golf tournaments, driver signing sessions, drifting displays, post race concerts, live television, etc, etc.

In my opinion the problem isn't with the cars (F3), it is coming up with the complete package for the fans (and sponsors).

[Stephen Green]

That was the point I was trying to make, we have to ENTERTAIN the viewers and spectators.

[e12]

Also make sure the tech package is economically sustainable. This is where CART/IRL have gone wrong. They are too expensive to run relative to public interest and therefore the amount of that money can be raised through sponsorship.

[hotwheels]

If you look only at the circuits available, Spain or Germany, for example, would be better positioned to host a top series. In fact Spain had the Super Nissan in the past.

I agree that the best thing to do would be to get back to a stronger Brit F3. I do think that the Euroseries is not suppoused to last too long, due to costs and the lack of manufacturers interest these days. So, national champs will be again on spot and British used to have the strongest of them all, mainly due to tradition, several professional teams around and the neighborhood to F1 headquarters.

I would put my mkt money on Brit F3, instead of trying to set up a new series. There is too many competition around and costs would always be a thing to concern.

Very nice thread, BTW!

Originally Posted by AstroBoy

I think if British F3 is remarketed better it could fill gap you are talking about.

Look how popular it is at Zandvoort and Macau.

The rounds of the championship need to be promoted as events rather than just another race meeting.

Asian F3 does this and are now starting to get decent spectator numbers (20,000+ at the last event).

They have grid girls, stunt shows, podium celebrations, press conferences, race week media activities, golf tournaments, driver signing sessions, drifting displays, post race concerts, live television, etc, etc.

In my opinion the problem isn't with the cars (F3), it is coming up with the complete package for the fans (and sponsors).

[Rob29]

Sorry,but I don't think F3 is powerful enough to be concidered here.Its really a training series of the 3rd division?
If we say divn one is;
F1
IRL
Champcars
A1GP
GP Masters

Then divn2 is;

GP2
F3000masters
EuroF3000
World Series Renault
F.Nippon
F4000
IPS
CC.Atlantic

Problem in the UK is there are now no race circuits that I would visit as a paying spectator.No facilities,you are pushed too far from the action,and no public transport to get you to and from the remote dumps that are used.

[AstroBoy]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Sorry,but I don't think F3 is powerful enough to be concidered here.Its really a training series of the 3rd division?
If we say divn one is;
F1
IRL
Champcars
A1GP
GP Masters

Then divn2 is;

GP2
F3000masters
EuroF3000
World Series Renault
F.Nippon
F4000
IPS
CC.Atlantic

I'm not sure how you came up with the 'division' theory, but I don't think I would put Formula 3 in a divison below F4000, IPS and Atlantic. Or F3000 for that matter.

Originally Posted by Rob29

Problem in the UK is there are now no race circuits that I would visit as a paying spectator.No facilities,you are pushed too far from the action,and no public transport to get you to and from the remote dumps that are used.

I agree that the facilities are not great, but i believe that if the whole 'show' was improved, you would get bigger spectator numbers. The BTCC got big crowds a few years ago, and the facilities haven't changed much since then.

Turn each round of the championship into an event.

F3 has proven that it can be popular to the fans - Macau, Zandvoort, Asian F3 - it just needs to be promoted correctly.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by AstroBoy

I'm not sure how you came up with the 'division' theory, but I don't think I would put Formula 3 in a divison below F4000, IPS and Atlantic. Or F3000 for that matter.

Was based on engine power and size.F1/F2/F3. 2 litres and less looks like the third divn. EuroBOSS could be be more exciting to watch if properly promoted,and we are getting into historic racing here!

[Noisy]

British F3 is enough for Britain.

[spider]

Just found some scribbling down of ideas i had...

BRITISH GRAND PRIX SERIES

20 cars, £1million entrance fee per team per season.
10 teams, 20 drivers.
Car example: Old Champ Car chassis combined with Cosworth engines

Circuits:

Brands Hatch GP
Snetterton
Thruxton
Rockingham
Donnington Park
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Silverstone

Or have a chassis similar dimensions to existing Formula One car. V10 Judd power. Chassis designed by Lola? Delta Motorsports?

Championship an alternative to Euro F3, and Renault World Series, falling below GP2, and F1 in European Single-seaters

Must be placed above British F3, to be the UK’s premier single-seater championship.

Promoted through the UK Autosport/Motorsport News press. Terrestrial television coverage, with Richard Hammond, among others picked

Teams commit to 3 years to the British GP Series, 10-12 teams for the first season

£2.5 million per team for 3 years.
£25 million for the 10 teams.

Teams such as Carlin Motorsport, Super Nova, David Price Racing, Manor Motorsport, Double R, Hitech Racing, Fortec Racing – racing at the top-level in either the UK, or in the European racing series.

Jordan Grand Prix, along with other ex-Formula One team managers may see the potential in a project that looks to setup a top-level UK single-seater championship.

The sexiness of the series will be enhanced by top UK and European celebrities being invited to each round.

At each race there will be a launch ceremony. To encourage spectators to attend each round, there will be a GP Series season ticket – 8 rounds for the price of 6, as well as paddock access at each race.

British GP Series support Championship – Porsche Cup GB, British F3 etc?

Billboards around the country, and in major cities, along with Radio campaigns, and taking over papers such as the free Metro

Also, who better to be the man, the face behind the series than Lord March? With his contacts list, I'm sure it could be a go-er.

There would need to be a large cash prize for the series victor to entice a decent level of competitor.

If we can establish, through a Spanish Organising Group, a top-line -wheel category suitable for seasoned pro's, why can't we for single-seaters...?

[AstroBoy]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Was based on engine power and size.F1/F2/F3. 2 litres and less looks like the third divn. EuroBOSS could be be more exciting to watch if properly promoted,and we are getting into historic racing here!

Why does it matter if F3 is in your 'division 3'?

Why would engine capacity make it unable to be the top-line open wheel category in the UK?

You have Atlantics in division 2 - they are 2.3L (does 300cc really make much difference), and I would bet an F3 car would be faster in lap times.

You have F4000 in division 2 - they have slower laps times than F3, and are nearly historics

The British Formula Ford Festival used to get big crowds, but they were 1.6 and 2.0L, and still the fans came to watch.

It just has to be packaged as an event and promoted well....

[kipper]

Originally Posted by spider

BRITISH GRAND PRIX SERIES

20 cars, £1million entrance fee per team per season.
10 teams, 20 drivers.
Car example: Old Champ Car chassis combined with Cosworth engine

Gets my vote, plus their are soon to be good levels of redundant Lola Champ Cars available.

Originally Posted by spider

Circuits:

Brands Hatch GP
Snetterton
Thruxton
Rockingham
Donnington Park
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Silverstone

I suspect that the cars would be too noisy for Combe, whilst one or two other venues may require safety upgrades. That said if the events can pull in a good crowd then I'm sure any reticence to this may diminish.

Originally Posted by spider

Promoted through the UK Autosport/Motorsport News press. Terrestrial television coverage, with Richard Hammond, among others picked

I would say that terrestrial TV coverage would be a must; although why stop at Autosport/MN for exposure, adverts in the motoring sections of the weekend papers, plus also local media would help reach a far greater audience.

Originally Posted by spider

At each race there will be a launch ceremony. To encourage spectators to attend each round, there will be a GP Series season ticket – 8 rounds for the price of 6, as well as paddock access at each race.

British GP Series support Championship – Porsche Cup GB, British F3 etc?

I think inducements to get spectators to as many events as possible would have positive reprecussions on the number of spectators. Also paddock access (especially if free) would probably be very popular. British F3 would make a good support act, reinforcing the BGP's status as a premier category, plus there may be some progression from F3 into the new series.

The series would be exceedingly expensive to set up and would probably require a good number of individuals to gamble quite large sums on the series succeeding. Whether or not such individuals can be found and are willing to divert such sums into this given the other investment options, plus general unease over the state of the economy is a point that is open to conjecture.

[bella]

i think you'd absolutely have to find a willing investor to kick off all the fanfares, and personally, i'd suggest a year of test running of races and things just to make sure the races are actually interesting. it'd be terrible if say, the cars were actually too wide or big for the circuits. the investor would probably have to front up around say, £6million, which is a lot of money unless you're a big company and you'd get a massive controlling interest in the series. there's not too many individuals in this country who could front up that sort of money happy to lose it.

no, increasingly i'm falling on the side of it not being possible. call me a pessimist, but i wouldn't put that money forward for it.there's no gurantees in terms of spectator numbers, and i'm not convinced how much profit could be made.

edit: i base the £6million on the grounds that teams wouldn't be able to front up the entry fees immediately, in addition to buying the cars, spares, etc etc.

[littleman]

No chance. Modern single-seaters are technically brilliant but utterly boring to watch and ridiculously expensive to run.The paying public aren't stupid.They want close racing,endless overtaking,the odd harmless shunt and hero's to support.The cars should be fast,loud and have more power than the chassis can really handle.The BTCC comes closest to this except the cars are just pitifully slow.How about across between the DTM and Aussie V8's?Single-seaters could support but not headline.

[Woolley]

I'd have said unfortunately not. There's just too much competition for your money these days and what Europe doesn't need is yet another big Single Seater series. But then Stephen's post set me thinking. A1GP has a bit of an image problem as no-one really knows where it sits. The racing was fantastic entertainment, but the drivers were almost all unknown. The target audience would almost certainly have never heard of Robbie Kerr. There's also something of a problem with funding from the rumours abounding. Why not make more cars and sell them for national series. A British A1GP series with the top two drivers going on to represent Britain in the international championship could just be a goer, especially if similar championships happened in other countries. Many European countries could support a series, and some of the countries with less infrastructure could combine - a middle eastern series, a SE Asian series, etc. I know this is not quite the thrust of the original thread, but I suggest that mutually complementary series is the only way national front-line SS cahmpionships could currently prosper.

[AstroBoy]

I agree, I don't think that the ecconomy could sustain a new, major category.

IF they were to introduce a new category though, I don't think the old champcars are the answer. We don't need another 'nothing' cateogry. They look ugly too.

A British A1 Grand Prix Series would be interesting. But I doubt it would happen - not enough money around, and too much competition from GP2, F3000, World Series, etc.

I still believe F3 is the way to go.

It's proven and is a global category - they just need to promote the the rounds as events, like they do at Macau, Zandoort, and in Asian F3.

[ianpearson]

[QUOTE=Woolley]Why not make more cars and sell them for national series. A British A1GP series with the top two drivers going on to represent Britain in the international championship could just be a goer, especially if similar championships happened in other countries.QUOTE]

To do this you could also use the "Challange initiative" idea of city/regional sponsored cars, it goes against the grain traditional motorsport but would attract fans from a certain area to cheer on their car, as long as you don't get the punch up a la football after the race it could work.

[AstroBoy]

Originally Posted by ianpearson

To do this you could also use the "Challange initiative" idea of city/regional sponsored cars, it goes against the grain traditional motorsport but would attract fans from a certain area to cheer on their car, as long as you don't get the punch up a la football after the race it could work.

A new category like British A1GP would cost huge amounts money to set-up and sustain. So limiting your sponsorship to specific regions wouldn't work.

International A1 Grand Prix is finding that problem - and they are working on an international level.

Good in theory, but in the real world it doesn't work.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by spider

Just found some scribbling down of ideas i had...

BRITISH GRAND PRIX SERIES

20 cars, £1million entrance fee per team per season.
10 teams, 20 drivers.
Car example: Old Champ Car chassis combined with Cosworth engines

Circuits:

Brands Hatch GP
Snetterton
Thruxton
Rockingham
Donnington Park
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Silverstone

Or have a chassis similar dimensions to existing Formula One car. V10 Judd power. Chassis designed by Lola? Delta Motorsports?

Championship an alternative to Euro F3, and Renault World Series, falling below GP2, and F1 in European Single-seaters

Must be placed above British F3, to be the UK’s premier single-seater championship.

Promoted through the UK Autosport/Motorsport News press. Terrestrial television coverage, with Richard Hammond, among others picked

Teams commit to 3 years to the British GP Series, 10-12 teams for the first season

£2.5 million per team for 3 years.
£25 million for the 10 teams.

Teams such as Carlin Motorsport, Super Nova, David Price Racing, Manor Motorsport, Double R, Hitech Racing, Fortec Racing – racing at the top-level in either the UK, or in the European racing series.

Jordan Grand Prix, along with other ex-Formula One team managers may see the potential in a project that looks to setup a top-level UK single-seater championship.

The sexiness of the series will be enhanced by top UK and European celebrities being invited to each round.

At each race there will be a launch ceremony. To encourage spectators to attend each round, there will be a GP Series season ticket – 8 rounds for the price of 6, as well as paddock access at each race.

British GP Series support Championship – Porsche Cup GB, British F3 etc?

Billboards around the country, and in major cities, along with Radio campaigns, and taking over papers such as the free Metro

Also, who better to be the man, the face behind the series than Lord March? With his contacts list, I'm sure it could be a go-er.

There would need to be a large cash prize for the series victor to entice a decent level of competitor.

If we can establish, through a Spanish Organising Group, a top-line -wheel category suitable for seasoned pro's, why can't we for single-seaters...?

I for one am very interested in the subject of a good o-w serie, and have been thinking of the possibilities for a long time.

There are however a couple of issues with a formula serie:
* Running costs: A technical package above F3-level will cost a lot of money. The gp2-car is imo a great car but i've read that a 2 car team needs 2.5 million euro. Euro3000-seats used to be +- 550.000 euro for 1 car. F3000 like 1.0 million.
* Position of the serie: Is this serie suposed to be a stepping stone to a f1-career for drivers? If it is not seen as such by f1-teams, there will be no young talents with money who buy their seat because it will not help them any further in their career. Imho the problem the superfund euro3000 serie had, talent with money picked F3000 or the world series because it was higher valued by f1-teams.
* manufacturer involvement: Is the serie going to have multiple manufacturers or 1 chassis/engine combo? There isn't a single formula-series in which multiple manufacters has not lead to huge costs. I don't know how it works in BSB, but in worldsuperbike there is a lot of manufacturer involvement but they still manage to attract 30+ competive bikes each race. Somehow it has not happened in formula-racing that multiple manufacturers and low-costs could be combined. And the disadvantage of a single manufacturer is that there is no $-support for teams.
* Action: There has to be enough action on track. Somehow the latest formula cars have allmost all resulted into boring racing. So the technical package has to take care of this.
* race tracks: As far as i know only Silverstone, Brands, Donnington, Rockingham and mondello park are Fia-grade 2 or higher. This grade is necessary for F3000 level racing if i'm not mistaken. Updating other tracks to this level can be very costly.
* tv-coverage: Superfund paid for everything including the live tv-production in the euro3000 championship. Still no decent tv-network wanted to air the races (motors tv ratings don't sell half a million sponsordeals for teams).
As i mentioned earlier running costs will be very high, so there is a very big need for good tv-coverage. I have not seen many series/sports that could land a big deal in their first year. And sunday two o'clock is quite full with big sports. Hard to sell for tv with all this competition.
* Tv-production:And how about tv-production, whatever tv-deal you get, that won't be payed in the first few years. Live tv-production is expensive, especially in motorsports (a circuit is long). CART paid $235.000 on tv-production per race in 2003.


Not trying to picture a very black scenario, just (imo) real issues facing any series.

I do feel that there is room in europe for a serie between F3 and F1 where a combination of young talents aiming for F1 and good career drivers who won't make it in f1 (the wilson's, firman's, mcnish's, etc.) battle it out with each other. However, you'll either need a big investor or a big manufacturer or a big network supporting you, and preferably all three!

Just one more remark: Wouldnt it be wise to have the serie aim at more countries then the UK alone? Like 2 or 3 (f.e. UK & germany, or France, Spain and italy)? That way the serie could still have a big enough presence in a country to be noticed all season long, and there will be more potential sponsors, tv-networks & exposure, public, drivers and tracks.

[duke_toaster]

Here's an Idea (not intended at a particular country, it would be great UK/Ireland) : Formula 3 Turbo

Formula 3 chassis + 2L turbo road car engines literally straight out of the road car (Subaru engines would be popular) + wider tyres + more downforce.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Here's an Idea (not intended at a particular country, it would be great UK/Ireland) : Formula 3 Turbo

Formula 3 chassis + 2L turbo road car engines literally straight out of the road car (Subaru engines would be popular) + wider tyres + more downforce.

This sounds good, just wondering about the extra downforce (why would you want that?).

Unfortunately the problem isn't finding a technical package, but finding 20+ drivers with money willing to race in this class. Most of the drivers in junior series are trying to make it up to F1 (or at least become a payed driver in a decent serie) and therefor will race in the serie that a) they have the budget for and b) is the best for the route to F1.

You can come up with such a great technical package, if this serie is not perceived as better for the career almost nobody will enter it. Look at the challenge initiative or power car challenge. It promises more races, more power en 200 mph topspeeds for the costs of F3 (with has less races, less power and lower topspeed). So even though the technical package of F3 seems less interesting, British F3 has full fields this year and the challenge is postponed due to no entrants.

[luke]

Its something I have thought about before. But we have the number 1 F3 series in the world. Although the Euro series is gaining some deserving prestiage (sp? sorry)
We have a touring car series that was one of the best infact the best as there was no oposition at the time for most of it. The BTCC you can hardly call the no1 and rightly so. But it is still good and 2nd to the World series in the Europe area...