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View Poll Results: F1 2012 "style"
One driver dominating with an occasional victory for the others. 0 0%
Two drivers only sharing the spoils (1988 springs to mind here) 1 2.17%
Only drivers in the top 3 teams winning as those teams spend the most (apparently) 2 4.35%
Hell, who knows and who cares who's gonna win, it's a lottery, lets have 20 winners !! 14 30.43%
Real racing no matter what happens, with any of the options above. 29 63.04%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8 Jun 2012, 00:34 (Ref:3087252)   #1
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F1 2012 style.

Just out of interest. What's your opinion of F1 races this year, especially with regards to tyres. There have been some mutterings from some of the drivers for instance who feel that the unpredictability of the tyres can be very off putting for the fans? Yet, when one driver dominates, say, Michael 2002 and 2004, or Sebastian 2011, we also here how this can turn people off?

So, what do you like to see?

(some suggestions....)

1. One driver dominating with an occasional victory for the others.

2. Two drivers only sharing the spoils (1988 springs to mind here)

3. Only drivers in the top 3 teams winning as those teams spend the most (apparently)

4. Hell, who knows and who cares who's gonna win, it's a lottery, lets have 20 winners !!

Thoughts?
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 00:40 (Ref:3087253)   #2
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4. 11 winners per season like 1982 but without fatal crashes. I really enjoy that style.
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 01:37 (Ref:3087264)   #3
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Interesting question, Mr V!

While I like the variety, I would like it better if the tyres were more of the "control" variety, such as the Goodyears were back in the day. I think that would take a good bit of the engineering out of the game and put more back in the hands of the drivers. All of this business of having 25C "windows" of optimal performance or tyres "falling off the cliff" is perhaps giving us "exciting" races but is the best car or driver actually winning?

My feeling is that all of the scheming/strategizing going on that results in cars not even going out for Qualie 3 in order to "save" tyres makes perfect sense based on the realities of the tyres but does not allow the drivers to "race."

Back in the day we often saw drivers nursing cars along with various ailments or experienced high retirement rates. We often could not see the best drivers going toe-to-toe for simple reasons of reliability. We now have an era where the cars are fast and super-reliable, and yet we don't let the drivers race as intensely as the cars will allow.

My two cents, anyway.
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 11:45 (Ref:3087484)   #4
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I just want to see the best car/driver ON THE DAY win. It dosn't matter how much money has been spent, or whether he's one of the top drivers.

I really don't like this present Pirelli business, with no team/engineer knowing from one week to the next how the car is going to react at the next race. Everyone should be on a level footing at the start of qualifying - there should be no nasty surprises.

Good luck to young Pastor (nice to see the clergy back in racing), but that result should never have happened. I personally don't care if it's all about the big-spender teams, as long as we get to see 5 or 6 top drivers having a close race-long battle without the uncertainty of tyres "going-off" at an inopportune moment.
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 12:00 (Ref:3087491)   #5
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I turned iinto a poll, with 5th option just for the fun of it.




Roll on !
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 12:15 (Ref:3087502)   #6
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5. nicanary's answer pretty well sums it up for me.
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 14:17 (Ref:3087553)   #7
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Before I get pulled up for it, I am fully aware that freak results happen in all forms of motor-sport, even in GP racing. There was always a reliability problem at Monaco for instance (Oliver Panis for example) but the end result wasn't as random as this present tyre situation.

Tyres have come into the equation in the past, such as the Moss win in Argentine 1958. But that was down to planned strategy, not technical probs beyond control of the team. (I'm afraid I regard the Maldanado win as a bit of a freak, sorry to all his fans.He's very promising, but he lucked-out that day).

Bernie may find all this uncertainty to his liking, but I don't consider it "pure" racing. It's really not fair to teams who put in all the slog, and then find something happens "on the day" which they couldn't possibly allow for.
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 14:34 (Ref:3087560)   #8
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option 5 for me, let's enjoy real racing!
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 14:42 (Ref:3087570)   #9
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Option 5 for me. We are where we are, so we might aswell enjoy it - after all, we spent years bleating about there being no overtaking!

I know we talked about this endlessly in the tyres thread, but... there is no such thing as "pure" racing at this level.

Unless it's a tightly controlled spec series, someone will *always* have an artificial advantage over the rest at any given point. That may be down to money (Ferrari, McLaren and now Red Bull), cheeky design loopholes that nobody saw coming (Brawn), innovation (Chapman and the first stressed member designs) or something else (Option 13!). It may simply be down to having a team that works well from drawing office to driver (The Brawn/Todt/Schumacher years), or someone who can wrestle a donkey of a car better than anyone else (there have been many).

Only if you can absolutely guarantee that all the cars are identical can you call the racing anywhere near "pure", because then it is solely down to the driver - and only then if there are no other factors such as the weather changing.

The teams asked for tyres to be made to spice up "the show", the FIA mandated it of the supplier, the supplier made them.

It's always the case that the drivers and teams with a better "feel" for the car will deal with the precipice these (or any) tyres have in terms of performance better than those who don't. But please, for everyone's sake, let's park the "purity" argument.

Last edited by Greem; 8 Jun 2012 at 14:43. Reason: Putting my vote in
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 16:33 (Ref:3087592)   #10
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Option 5. There's still a pecking order in F1 because it's not like HRT, Marussia or Caterham are going to get a podium any time soon, they'll be lucky to score a point! And it's not like any of the teams that are winning races, haven't won races before.
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 17:06 (Ref:3087613)   #11
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Only if you can absolutely guarantee that all the cars are identical can you call the racing anywhere near "pure", because then it is solely down to the driver - and only then if there are no other factors such as the weather changing.
Still no! Set up, engineers, strategy, luck, it goes on! There is no such thing as equal machinery even in spec series! And if there is, the spec car may suit a certain kind of driver over another for arbitrary reasons! So bleh!

F1 this year has been amazing, end of as far as I am concerned.

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Option 5. There's still a pecking order in F1 because it's not like HRT, Marussia or Caterham are going to get a podium any time soon, they'll be lucky to score a point! And it's not like any of the teams that are winning races, haven't won races before.
... and if the tires are a lottery, then why have all race winners come from the front row? Wouldn't the in-race degradation screw things up?
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 17:32 (Ref:3087618)   #12
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Still no! Set up, engineers, strategy, luck, it goes on! There is no such thing as equal machinery even in spec series! And if there is, the spec car may suit a certain kind of driver over another for arbitrary reasons! So bleh!
That's the most violent agreement I've seen in some time
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 17:48 (Ref:3087621)   #13
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That's the most violent agreement I've seen in some time
Well, I violently agree with you! This all makes too much sense!
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Old 8 Jun 2012, 17:59 (Ref:3087626)   #14
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I just want to see the best car/driver ON THE DAY win.

I really don't like this present Pirelli business, with no team/engineer knowing from one week to the next how the car is going to react .
But surely, the best driver and driver ON THE DAY is the one that makes best use of the present Pirelli business?
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 10:21 (Ref:3087911)   #15
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But surely, the best driver and driver ON THE DAY is the one that makes best use of the present Pirelli business?
But they can be fastest in practice, the fastest combination at the track, and then find in the race that the tyres are going to screw them up. It's not like the old days, when a good driver could conserve his tyres and drive round it.It seems to me that they don't know what's going to happen next - one lap it's fine, next lap they in the proverbial.

I get Greem's point about Spec formulae, but that'sthe last thing we want for GP racing. It's about technilogical innovation and excellence as well as the drivers. Always has been. What I meant by "pure" racing was - no outside interference. When the lights go out it should be all about the driver, car , engineer and team. No meddling with rules, and artificial assistance gubbins. If the cars comply with the regulations, then when the race starts they should be allowed to complete the race distance asthey feel fit.

By that I mean they can choose which tyre to use, not be forced to use both compounds whether they want to or not. If they want to go non-stop, why not? No DRS, no sprinklers (!!!). And if one designer comes up with an ingenious solution which the others hadn't thought of, well good for him. No more of this Elizabeth Bott business - it's manipulation of racing if clever design is banned because of whining from the other teams.

(By the way, are F1 cars scrutineered before the race - you never hear about it?) . If the car complies with the regs, run what you brung. In your own way, as you feel fit. None of this nanny-state, we know what's best for you business. Let's open it up a bit.
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 10:38 (Ref:3087915)   #16
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The poll is flawed because I would vote 5 and many would, but they would have different definitions of what this entails. I am voting 4 because I really like the open nature of this year and want to cherish it before the teams get a handle on things and events stabilise more. I also don't think it's a lottery.
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 10:50 (Ref:3087920)   #17
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Shall we just change our names to 'Born Racer/ECW Dan Selby'? Might be easier...

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Old 9 Jun 2012, 12:23 (Ref:3087964)   #18
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Don't really care how many winners there are. Obviously, it is a bit more interesting when a few drivers win rather than just one but not if it is contrived.

You can have one winner doing it in style, you can have a titanic scrap exclusively between two drivers, you can have a free for all. All are potentially interesting whilst within the framework of respectable sporting competition.

I fear I am about to be accused of cynicism here so I better leave it there.
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 13:50 (Ref:3088006)   #19
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The poll is flawed because I would vote 5 and many would, but they would have different definitions of what this entails.
That's why the space of the discussion around the poll, the idea is there, you just have to explain what do you really like. Or would you prefer just follow what someone else said... and in my opinion "real racing" is pretty well self explained.
Polls are usually "flawed" as someone might come almost always with a different alternative or option.
Anyway, the 4th option for you, sums up what you think of the "F1 2012 style", so no worries.
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 17:07 (Ref:3088083)   #20
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I fear I am about to be accused of cynicism here so I better leave it there.
You, a cynic? never
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 17:35 (Ref:3088091)   #21
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I am not particularly cynical actually, but 100% of my posts are taken seriously because I don't add a wink on the end.

Unfortunately this has coincided with several posts where I have expressed genuine displeasure with F1 currently and, obviously, not liking F1 = cynicism in forumming parlance.

If you want cynicism, ensign is the man not me.

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Old 9 Jun 2012, 18:27 (Ref:3088127)   #22
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I am not particularly cynical actually, but 100% of my posts are taken seriously because I don't add a wink on the end.
Ah! So that's what's been missing for all these years! .
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 20:16 (Ref:3088197)   #23
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Only if you can absolutely guarantee that all the cars are identical can you call the racing anywhere near "pure", because then it is solely down to the driver - and only then if there are no other factors such as the weather changing.
Racing being down to just the driver is not the concern though, because F1 has always been about the car too.

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That's why the space of the discussion around the poll, the idea is there, you just have to explain what do you really like. Or would you prefer just follow what someone else said... and in my opinion "real racing" is pretty well self explained.
Polls are usually "flawed" as someone might come almost always with a different alternative or option.
Anyway, the 4th option for you, sums up what you think of the "F1 2012 style", so no worries.
I auppose it follows less what someone else said if you pick the 5th option in that it's less specific, but I was mainly making the point that for me the 'real racing' argument is too complicated to untangle. In my opinion it's not self-explained, unless it means 'without the current tyre situation'.

Getting away from the poll options specifically, my feeling is that the complaints from some quarters about the emphasis on tyres is missing the point that this is just a new big factor in car design and that at some point this season, teams will understand much better what's going on and things will stabilise a bit. The races will then be less exciting and people can go back to compaining about that.

Last edited by Born Racer; 9 Jun 2012 at 20:24.
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 21:54 (Ref:3088237)   #24
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I auppose it follows less what someone else said if you pick the 5th option in that it's less specific, but I was mainly making the point that for me the 'real racing' argument is too complicated to untangle. In my opinion it's not self-explained, unless it means 'without the current tyre situation'.

Getting away from the poll options specifically, my feeling is that the complaints from some quarters about the emphasis on tyres is missing the point that this is just a new big factor in car design and that at some point this season, teams will understand much better what's going on and things will stabilise a bit. The races will then be less exciting and people can go back to compaining about that.
Ok, so in your opinion the poll is flawed.

The reasons are valid for new whole threads, and some of them are happening now in the forum. This poll was to make the discussion easier for the reader, instead of looking for the first post and try to opinate with the proposed options. I added the 5th option based on the initial posts that proposed a 5th option, which basically was what I felt also.
Unfortunatelly some people have issues with polls... and the discussion always fall into some criticism over the options.
Personally I like to avoid polls, and there's a reason why they're not available for the users, but there you are.

I've been hearing from commentators that the racing is fantastic, the passing is great and the number of winners is amazing. Maybe "real racing" is a whole new concept that I must get some day, I don't know.
Don't get me wrong I'm having fun watching this season, I really am... I can enjoy drinking grape juice instead of wine, but don't ask me which one is better.
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Old 10 Jun 2012, 02:03 (Ref:3088294)   #25
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Real racing no matter what happens, with any of the options above.
I went with this. No matter what happens, if it isn't authentic I'm not interested, no matter what the results. Too many series try hokey artificial bullcrap to liven things up for fans with ADD, and I hate it.

"Oh no, the crowd is falling asleep and the viewers at home are probably in the other room playing Xbox. Better throw a 'competition caution'!"

"That guy keeps doing well. Better dump a bunch of 'success ballast' into his car so that the guys behind him have a chance. How dare he be that good, anyway.... So-so drivers are where it's at."

"Let's have a reverse grid. Put slower guys up front and faster guys in back so that they have to pass someone. It's going to happen, but the fans are too dumb to realize that it was basically an arbitrary pass, so who cares?"

If Car A got slowed by a punch of "success ballast" and then Car B beats him, it isn't really so much that Driver B beat Driver A so much as the success ballast beat Driver A. If you hitch a wagon filled with bricks to the back of the top driver's car, my grandmother can finish ahead of him, but that doesn't mean she beat him. The bricks beat him.

Blah, blah. Anyway, I suppose you get the point. Fake racing is fake, no matter how entertaining it might be for casual fans.
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