Ouch. This is expensive.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I do often wonder what sort of people drive cars sometimes. The guy that phoned up the emergency services in the States (who was unfortunately killed) with the vehicle going at ever increasing speed, could he not turn the engine off ?

Me too. Ya know he was a cop? Three others in the car died as well.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by garcon

We get some truly awful Chryslers too - the 300C is by far the best of them! Although I suspect some of the Chrysler and Jeep models we get are aimed at the Euro market, being available as diesels...

Oh, and a few Cadillacs, although I suspect the BLS doesn't sell in the US (doesn't sell much here either) - somehow they took a Saab 9-3 and made it worse.

Fortunately we have a few specialist importers who bring over the 'vettes, new Camaro, Mustang, Escalade and a few others. These are mainly for people who love their American metal and have more money than sense - a V8 Camaro is well over GBP40,000, an Escalade ESV is approaching GBP60,000!

Can't see me ever having an American car over here - except maybe a 'vette as a weekend toy. But if I ever end up in the US for more than a few months I reckon my first purchase would be an Escalade!

Can't have a Slade... you have to buy a truck first.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Can't have a Slade... you have to buy a truck first.

Latest is that Toyota are recalling several hundred thousand Priuses (Prii?) to resolve the braking software issue.

I can see how all this will harm Toyota in the minds of many consumers, but I'm sure that many more will stand by the brand because they know that on the whole their reputation for reliable cars that are well put together using quality materials is justified.

One thing I think we'll see is that Toyota's high standards of customer service mean that the recall process will be relatively painless for customers. I dread to think what chaos would ensue if Audi ever have such a large scale recall.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Me too. Ya know he was a cop? Three others in the car died as well.

It does make you wonder about the standard of driver training. (In most countries, not just the US or UK).

With the ever increasing technology and complexity of cars, should the basic driving test include emergency procedures to deal with vehicle failure?

[nea]

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

I can't find the number of total cars, but 26 out of whatever that is is going to be a tiny percentage, so the likelihood of something happening is remote, although the consequences could be catastrophic. I also see little reporting on the fact that the assembly isn't built by Toyota but one of their subcontracted suppliers, as most parts on cars these days. They still owe the duty of care, but their supplier should be grilled on it too.

The point is, the chance of it happening is so remote that the threat is being blown out of all proportion. I had a Cincquento once that had a recall on a faulty fuel tank. The likelihood it would corrode early and cause a fire was remote but they dealt with it just like Toyota are. OK so there are more cars involved in this one but the implications and the way its handled should really have been the same. Didn't see that splashed all over the front pages tho

I work for a major engine manufacturer in the automotive and industrial markets as a mechanical engineer and handle warranty some in my job. This is how it normally operates in our world. If I went to the head of quality for my company and said we have "26 failures", he'd say that's 26 too many, fix it. The difference between those and this is that this one has documented deaths.

As far as the supplier, due to the longstanding nature of the problem, I can't believe they are at fault. Toyota would have instructed CTS on the design that their assemblies would meet from drawings, and as long as CTS matched the assembly drawing specifications for dimensions and tolerances and material that would be called out, they are in the clear. That's the common standard for manufacturing on this scale nowadays unless you're going to high-end items such as fuel pumps, fans, turbochargers, alternators, etc. that would be supplier-controlled.

The problem for CTS is that the throttle pedal assembly drawing and its component part drawings are probably Toyota-proprietary, so they can't show it to the public saying "see? we matched the print, it's not our fault".

If it was an issue from what CTS manufactured, Toyota SQI (Supplier Quality Insurance) should have caught it, and considering they're recalling some vehicles from way back in 2007 made in several different plants, I don't see how it could be CTS' fault, otherwise a ton of Toyota SQI people from a lot of different plants are about to get fired. Toyota SQI would check to make sure a random sample from parts coming match the print specifications. If not, they notify CTS and CTS would take on the full cost of the parts received and CTS would have to make new parts that match the print, and probably a financial penalty for stopping the assembly line from operating on top of it. If they meet the drawing, than that is Toyota's acceptance of the parts saying that CTS did their job correctly and they take ownership of the parts. The long-term back in the past of the recall is why I don't think it's CTS' manufacturing fault and is instead a Toyota design fault. Although now with the brake issues, it appears it could be an ECU problem, which would link that with the accelerator issues.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

A clutch ! How many people the other side of the pond drive a stick shift

Raises hand.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Raises hand.

Well that's one

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Well that's one

My sister drives a stick-shift Ford Focus. My dad made sure both of us knew how.

And if you know how to drive a manual, you might as well buy a car with a manual, it's better gas mileage (why hasn't the green police focused on more manuals vs. automatics? is it because none of them know how to drive a stick?), costs less in original price, and in order to drive a stick you're mentally required to be more focused on driving and it makes you more aware of what you're doing in my opinion.

As my primary vehicle is a stick and I seldom drive anything else, it's always weird when I get into an automatic because when I go to turn the ignition I stop for a second because my left foot is telling me "I should be doing something".

[Hepatic]

i'm glad you've said that, but i bet you are in the minority. someone i used to work with moved to the US when her husbands job required it. she reported back not long after going out that she was astounded at how basic and useless the driving test was. not sure if that was state specific or even basic due to already owning a UK license, but lets just say it took 3 mins of her time to pass and you get the idea.

Although now with the brake issues, it appears it could be an ECU problem, which would link that with the accelerator issues.

Thats untrue, the 2010 Prius is the only car to be recalled for the brakes, not the whole range with the pedal issues. It appears my Yaris (08) is not affected, that seems to suggest that its not a date (therefore design) issue but maybe plant (therefore quality) issue. Normally any design change will effect a whole and complete date range of manufacture, but it seems the ones being recalled are not in uniform groups. Or it could be the specific model of Yaris, mine is the SR which is not the same inside or out as the others so possibly doesn't share the pedal assembly. I'm expecting a letter from Toyota, doubt it'll help delve in to the details but i may well ask at my dealership next time i go in, you never know.

Either way i still think they are doing a fantastic job in the circumstances. Many makes and dealers would handle this badly, some would probably even deny its their liability. Anything like this must be handled openly and honestly, and anyone following their websites or twitter will see just how well they are doing that.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

A clutch ! How many people the other side of the pond drive a stick shift

I've got one! It's a garage queen, but I've got one.

Originally Posted by garcon

It does make you wonder about the standard of driver training. (In most countries, not just the US or UK).

With the ever increasing technology and complexity of cars, should the basic driving test include emergency procedures to deal with vehicle failure?

If there is anywhere easier to get a license than the US, I'd like to know about it. My Brit and Aussie friends received much better training.

[Daimlerman]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

If there is anywhere easier to get a license than the US, I'd like to know about it. My Brit and Aussie friends received much better training.

When working in the D R Congo last year I had to take a driving test.

Took all of 5 minutes and could have been passed by a child of 10!!!

Mind you I don't know what I am going to do with my Congolese driving license now. Sure as hell don't want to go back there!!

[nea]

And now it would appear that Honda were feeling left out and have decided to do a recall all of their own. Concerns about passenger airbags.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8507450.stm

[Hepatic]

i'm waiting for BMW to recall their cars for faulty indicators

[GORDON STREETER]

I saw a program about taking a driving test in India where lots of people don't take the test themselves but get someone else to do it for them.
Also in one scene there were three people and the examiner in the car and only one drove, but he passed all three as the other two's comments impressed him !!!!!!
Mind you they were young nubile "bits of skirt"

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

Thats untrue, the 2010 Prius is the only car to be recalled for the brakes, not the whole range with the pedal issues.

The accelerator and brake problems could be independent problems but with the same root cause of a gremlin in the ECU that's creating or playing a part in the problem. The ECU software would most likely be very highly similar across the company's platforms, it'd just have different engine maps for different vehicles. The accelerator (drive-by-wire) and brake would both he highly tied into ECU control for reasons of fuel mileage and emissions.

Many makes and dealers would handle this badly, some would probably even deny its their liability.

Toyota did that for awhile in this. Did you not see the timeline chart a couple pages back?

Anything like this must be handled openly and honestly...

Agree.

...and anyone following their websites or twitter will see just how well they are doing that.

Yes, they started handling it well right after the media started paying attention. It's been going on for a lot longer than that. The initial factory shutdown for example that I detail in the original post they painted as them deciding to do that, when it was an actually a requirement from the government because they didn't have an engineering solution. The Prius issues only came to light because a super-high up guru at Apple told a public forum in response to the accelerator problems that he was having brake issues with his Prius but couldn't get anyone at Toyota to listen to him.

http://jalopnik.com/5461945/apple-co...-can-duplicate

http://jalopnik.com/5462217/steve-wo...oyota-response

http://jalopnik.com/5462834/toyota-t...ius-for-a-week

http://jalopnik.com/5462889/japanese...brake-problems

http://jalopnik.com/5464094/toyota-a...use-of-the-woz

http://jalopnik.com/5464593/toyota-t...us-in-us-japan

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

i'm waiting for BMW to recall their cars for faulty indicators

They need to do a recall on the 90% of drivers of all cars who don't use them. Nothing wrong with the indicators on mine, even effective combined with main beam to shift dodderers out of the overtaking lanes.

My old BMW did get recalled when it was about 10 years old. Something to do with suspension bushes IIRC.

We've also got an 08 Yaris which I thought was due to be on the list. Where did you get the info that yours isn't?


[edit] just checked the Toyota website and mine is affected, so I've completed the contact details, lets see what happens next[/edit]

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I saw a program about taking a driving test in India where lots of people don't take the test themselves but get someone else to do it for them.
Also in one scene there were three people and the examiner in the car and only one drove, but he passed all three as the other two's comments impressed him !!!!!!
Mind you they were young nubile "bits of skirt"

Had a story on the radio today of an international student go for a Victorian driver's licence, fail, and drive home using their international driver's licence...

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

The accelerator and brake problems could be independent problems but with the same root cause of a gremlin in the ECU that's creating or playing a part in the problem.

the problem on the accelerator is excessive wear on mechanical parts sometimes leading to a sticking throttle. it could not possibly have anything to do with the ECU, which would be a software issue as being reported on the Prius.

Theoretically, at what point does a company "know" they have a problem that needs a recall? One death shouldn't make anyone take a kneejerk reaction and recall all the cars. It has to be investigated thoroughly and that takes time. Every single incident has to be checked individually & sometimes a common fault maybe found, but the cause of that fault may not be common. Only after many incidents, investigations and common causes of the same fault can someone practicably start contemplating recalling the cars. For that reason, and the tiny number of times they have reported the same issue, i can see why its taken them years to acknowledge the issue then start the recall.

Think of it in a similar way to a pandemic. 1st its a local issue, then spreads to a town, then a county, then a country, then internationally. If its something new, like swine flu, you can't just shut down countries on the off chance its really bad. You take a calculated risk, and from what i can tell that is exactl;y what Toyota have done

Originally Posted by Woolley

We've also got an 08 Yaris which I thought was due to be on the list. Where did you get the info that yours isn't?


[edit] just checked the Toyota website and mine is affected, so I've completed the contact details, lets see what happens next[/edit]

Yep used their recall microsite and confirmed via the VIN that it is not part of the recall. I'm assuming yours is not an SR

[Woolley]

No, D-4D. It's going in next Saturday for about an hour.

[nea]

Anyone have a Corolla? If so, your car may be next on the recall list due to problems with the power steering.

So, Toyota make cars that can't brake, accelerator jams on and wont steer

[Woolley]

Perfect. Drag racing here I come!

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by nea

Anyone have a Corolla? If so, your car may be next on the recall list due to problems with the power steering.

So, Toyota make cars that can't brake, accelerator jams on and wont steer

What year?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Chatters

What year?

'09-'10.

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

'09-'10.

Cheers.