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Old 29 May 2013, 17:57 (Ref:3255087)   #326
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quite surprising just how many get away with alloy rads,just one of many things that were never used in period.
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Old 29 May 2013, 22:27 (Ref:3255220)   #327
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As usual there are always grey areas especially at Spa and if things were ruled with a rod of iron probably half of the cars competing would be excluded
Well that would be a good start and would probably weed out two thirds of the 'grey area' cars around.
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Old 29 May 2013, 23:01 (Ref:3255234)   #328
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Daft thing is Terry, my new brass rads in the road car and the spare leaks . . . . I think the brass rads better. just ran out of time to change everything over.
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Old 30 May 2013, 06:15 (Ref:3255291)   #329
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It wasn't a knock at you Zef,**it happens.Point being as said.Six hr scrutineering bay is fun to be at,estimate around 70% of the cars there have alloy rads,nothing gets said though.Makes me laugh,you have to show your HTPs for a non fia event?
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Old 30 May 2013, 06:33 (Ref:3255292)   #330
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Its the second time I've needed mine in nearly ten years . . . . and I left it at home
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Old 30 May 2013, 06:39 (Ref:3255295)   #331
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Claude Boissy escort, pardon my mistake is a Mk 1 but RS what ? Please help !

The car is correct but I cannot tell what the exact spec it is. I know he has a pinto block with holbay head on it but after...
Surely a Mk1 RS Escort can only be 1600 (1990cc) to be period correct? Otherwise it has to be a twin cam or 1300GT. Mike would be well placed to answer this one. Post 74 the RS1800 initially ran then the RS2000, but these were Mk2.
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Old 30 May 2013, 08:00 (Ref:3255323)   #332
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Surely a Mk1 RS Escort can only be 1600 (1990cc) to be period correct? Otherwise it has to be a twin cam or 1300GT. Mike would be well placed to answer this one. Post 74 the RS1800 initially ran then the RS2000, but these were Mk2.
Thanks Peter, but were there any Mk1 Escort with Holbay cylinder head and pinto block in national championship or so ?

I know Claude has another Escort with the BDA engine that he uses sometimes arround and also a Group 1 1600.

He's also trying to build a BDJ version of the Escort I think but that's another story as he's trying to find out how they were !
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Old 30 May 2013, 08:38 (Ref:3255344)   #333
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Doubt it because the RS 2000 was only homologated after 75, after they stopped the RS1800 and if you're looking for genuine cars then I don't think it would comply. As to aftermarket heads, I thought the cars could run modified heads but of original manufacture. (I stand to be corrected on both these points.).

All a bit of a shame really because I could have entered the Capri had it been made clear that modifications to the App J regs would be permitted.


Edit: According to http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1975%20Cars.html the Zakspeed MkII Escorts were still running the BDA in 1975.

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Old 30 May 2013, 09:13 (Ref:3255359)   #334
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Doubt it because the RS 2000 was only homologated after 75, after they stopped the RS1800 and if you're looking for genuine cars then I don't think it would comply. As to aftermarket heads, I thought the cars could run modified heads but of original manufacture. (I stand to be corrected on both these points.).

All a bit of a shame really because I could have entered the Capri had it been made clear that modifications to the App J regs would be permitted.


Edit: According to http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1975%20Cars.html the Zakspeed MkII Escorts were still running the BDA in 1975.
Thanks Peter, but please send me your email by PM so I can send you the questionnaire, I would like to build a regulations which accept all the cars from the era, Gp 1/1B/2 as we would like to see some national championship cars as well.
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Old 30 May 2013, 09:33 (Ref:3255367)   #335
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I am restoring an original BTCC race winning Group 1B car at present. Should be ready by end of the year.

PM on the way.
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Old 30 May 2013, 12:25 (Ref:3255433)   #336
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Thanks Peter, but were there any Mk1 Escort with Holbay cylinder head and pinto block in national championship or so ?
I'm fairly sure that the Pinto engine was introduced after the Mk 1 Escort was replaced by the Mk 2. Therefore, there should be no Pinto engined Mk 1 cars with or without Holbay heads.
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Old 30 May 2013, 12:27 (Ref:3255434)   #337
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MK1 Escort RS2000's where about in '75? a mate I went to school with had one, on an N plate.
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Old 30 May 2013, 12:31 (Ref:3255439)   #338
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MK1 Escort RS2000's where about in '75? a mate I went to school with had one, on an N plate.
I also used to work on Mk 1 RS2OOOs when they were new !
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Old 30 May 2013, 12:34 (Ref:3255443)   #339
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I also used to work on Mk 1 RS2OOOs when they were new !
I stand corrected. You are right.
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Old 30 May 2013, 12:41 (Ref:3255447)   #340
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Old 30 May 2013, 13:57 (Ref:3255479)   #341
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I'm fairly sure that the Pinto engine was introduced after the Mk 1 Escort was replaced by the Mk 2. Therefore, there should be no Pinto engined Mk 1 cars with or without Holbay heads.
You are right ! Holbay head were only on the Mk2s.

Shame as he will be out at the Summer Classic with the BDA engined car.

My mistake.
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Old 30 May 2013, 14:41 (Ref:3255491)   #342
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Pardon me guys, but having discussed with Claude directly, if you look at the 5566 FIA Homologation form of the Ford Escort RS2000, the Pinto block, Holbay cylinder head and injection are homologated in the amendment 5/5V on the 13.5.1974.

So the car is FIA correct and conforms to the HTP Claude has.
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Old 30 May 2013, 14:47 (Ref:3255495)   #343
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Ok thanks. I know the Mk1 RS2000was around in 74/5 but didn't realise it was homologated for Gp2 at that time. Interesting because I thought group 2 imposed manufacturer castings from 75 onwards. It's what did for the GAA Capri.
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Old 30 May 2013, 16:23 (Ref:3255527)   #344
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I also used to work on Mk 1 RS2OOOs when they were new !



Now thats what I call a good memory!

I restored a cheap tatty one for a mate in 74,high miles and fair bit of surface rust [rare on a Ford I know] new grp1 engine,rebuilt box/axle.Just over a week after he collected it he comprehensively rolled it-so we started all over again.


It now lives somewhere in Kent.
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Old 30 May 2013, 17:54 (Ref:3255568)   #345
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Gp 2 regs

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Ok thanks. I know the Mk1 RS2000was around in 74/5 but didn't realise it was homologated for Gp2 at that time. Interesting because I thought group 2 imposed manufacturer castings from 75 onwards. It's what did for the GAA Capri.
Peter, it was the use of any 4 valve heads that were banned at the end of 1975 when the Gp 2 rules were changed. Unless of coarse they were mass produced like the Dolly Sprint etc.....not sure if the person I spoke to at Spa was being serious but he mentioned the existence of a Warriior 2.6 litre pinto based engine......
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Old 4 Jun 2013, 14:25 (Ref:3257625)   #346
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Pardon me guys, but having discussed with Claude directly, if you look at the 5566 FIA Homologation form of the Ford Escort RS2000, the Pinto block, Holbay cylinder head and injection are homologated in the amendment 5/5V on the 13.5.1974.

So the car is FIA correct and conforms to the HTP Claude has.
I'm back and disagree! This is my take- The car cannot be a Gp2 RS1600 (which is what it was entered as) and have a Pinto based Holbay engine of 2litres or any other capacity. That spec does not appear in the RS1600 homologation papers.

BUT as you say Ford did include it on the RS2000 papers, even though there is no evidence I am aware of that it was used in period in a MK1 RS2000. Sadly we seem to be reaching a situation with the FIA where parts can be used even though no period proof is available. also, if an Escort is to be presented with this engine, it should also conform to other RS2000 homologation, which will include 20mm thick brake discs, bubble arches only and no front spoiler. I would need to clarify the use of a ZF 5speed g/box as this is included and then crossed out on the homologation papers.

Further to the above, I have been advised that new 'Holbay' engines can be built using an American 2.3 litre bottom end and give 300bhp! This is something that organisers will need to be aware of if more cars are presented with this engine type. One car is being built with 'Holbay' lump in the UK at present.

My RS1600 may not be period but is fundamentally period correct. Naturally it is the organisers perogative to accept cars or refuse them, but it would be disappointing to see a promising intitial race turn into a series for a mismatch of cars. But as ever I will vote with my feet when the time comes!

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Old 5 Jun 2013, 03:23 (Ref:3257871)   #347
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I'm back and disagree! This is my take- The car cannot be a Gp2 RS1600 (which is what it was entered as) and have a Pinto based Holbay engine of 2litres or any other capacity. That spec does not appear in the RS1600 homologation papers.
Kind of what I tried to say earlier.
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Old 5 Jun 2013, 05:38 (Ref:3257890)   #348
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Kind of what I tried to say earlier.
Then two of us have said it so must be right!

My other concern is that the FIA may be blind to the fact that more modern Warrior cylinder heads are completely different to the original Holbay, and that with cam covers denoting the latter rather than former, cars could be granted RS2000 HTPs using a head that is/was not homologated. I have bought this to the attention of a noted MSA Inspector in UK and am passing all the info I have on the respective heads to him. (There is an interesting thread in History Section about them)

The main reason the Warrior is popular is because it is allowed in UK Historic Rallying as a subsitute for the UNOBTAINABLE Holbay head. It is a 'performance equivalent', to use HRCR term. Hopefully the FIA can be made to appreciate that it is not the same animal..............

BTW Using 2 litre Pinto block there is nothing to be gained over a BDA/G (except perhaps cost), the advantage is as mentioned previously- the opportunity to have a hugely oversize engine that looks the same. Shades of Porsche 911/914?
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Old 5 Jun 2013, 06:52 (Ref:3257897)   #349
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Old 5 Jun 2013, 07:25 (Ref:3257902)   #350
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2 things Mike

Historic rallying seems to bear little historic about it, so not really a very good reference, Escorts seem to run just about anything with 4 cylinders that fit under the bonnet, even Vauxhall engines.

THe Blue Escort was French.
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