Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[JagtechOhio]

Penske's mention of equivalency between competing engine types is the first I've read anyone raise the issue.

I still believe this is going to be a Honda V6 turbo, with one or two other "interested parties" but no competition announced.

There isn't a clear reason for anyone to make a major investment in this series unless it finishes the season in better shape than it is now.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Having obviously read the article, I'm a little confused as to where he stands on multiple/chassis/engines and the Delta Wing; though it would seem he's covering his bases.

[JagtechOhio]

Yeah, Penske isn't pushing anything...he's pushed just about anything, so it means just about as much. Suggested keeping the Dallaras and updating them, fitting different engines to them, suggested a common engine block for the teams to build themselves, equivalency between four and six cylinder competitors, chassis competition, building the Delta, changing nothing for two years...what has Penske come out against?

What an easygoing old chap. He's just going with the flow.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

What an easygoing old chap. He's just going with the flow.

I like that.

I just wonder how long the flow will go; he can't remain matey with Chip forever, after all they are competitors.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Penske's mention of equivalency between competing engine types is the first I've read anyone raise the issue.

I still believe this is going to be a Honda V6 turbo, with one or two other "interested parties" but no competition announced.

There isn't a clear reason for anyone to make a major investment in this series unless it finishes the season in better shape than it is now.

Wouldn't that be funny if Honda just called it quits at the end of 2011.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Wouldn't that be funny if Honda just called it quits at the end of 2011.

I always thought that was going to happen; Honda anounced it themselves, then for some 'reason' changed their minds.

[NaBUru38]

I don't know the reason, but I do know that they are title sponsors of four races (St. Pete, Toronto, Edmonton and Mid-Ohio) and host a fifth at one of their home tracks (Motegi).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I don't know the reason, but I do know that they are title sponsors of four races (St. Pete, Toronto, Edmonton and Mid-Ohio) and host a fifth at one of their home tracks (Motegi).

Honda own Motegi.

[icemachine]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I don't know the reason, but I do know that they are title sponsors of four races (St. Pete, Toronto, Edmonton and Mid-Ohio) and host a fifth at one of their home tracks (Motegi).

The Canadian races are sponsored by the Honda Dealers association I believe, not the parent company

[NaBUru38]

Exactly, the other is Suzuka. I meant "home" as in "X team play home", not as in "Japan".

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Having obviously read the article, I'm a little confused as to where he stands on multiple/chassis/engines and the Delta Wing; though it would seem he's covering his bases.

Him and Cindric have both been careful to say nothing explicitly for (as in John Barnes level) or against it.

[Tim Northcutt]

There have been reports that the five different cassis manufacturers/designers are meeting here in Indy to pitch their options to the ICONIC group...those meetings are happening early this week...I believe that they started today out at IMS.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

There have been reports that the five different cassis manufacturers/designers are meeting here in Indy to pitch their options to the ICONIC group...those meetings are happening early this week...I believe that they started today out at IMS.

Any idea as to how long after this metting the ICONIC group will make a decision?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Any idea as to how long after this metting the ICONIC group will make a decision?

From what I've read within various items and have heard, they want to reach a decision by June 30

[Amar7605]

What is the ICONIC group? Does it speak officially for the IndySeries?

[JagtechOhio]

Amar,

Short story is that ICONIC is an advisory group, assembled to review the prospective chassis designs and forward their recommendation to IRL CEO Randy Bernard.

Bernard will then present these recommendations to the IMS Board of directors, who will make the final determination as to the future specifications.

[JagtechOhio]

Mario Illien of Ilmor was interviewed by Gordon Kirby. An excerpt of his comments:

"I have some doubts about running a four-cylinder installation on ovals," Illien commented. "My theory is that if you hit the wall with a four cylinder you're going to break the car in two because the lateral stiffness is not great and the torsional stiffness is not that great. That means you've got to have a subframe which is never as stiff as an engine installation and at such high speeds I just don't think it's good. You'll have to make the subframe as big as the engine and I see that as an issue."

This was a topic discussed previously in this thread. One of the chassis designers was kind enough to discuss the issue at length, and his philosophy was essentially the same as Illien's. He says a stressed engine V6 is a must.

There are points of disagreement to this philosophy, including a recent example. The Dyson Lola as previously described has a semi-stressed four cylinder engine: it is heavier than an IndyCar by approximately 300 lbs. Torsional rigidity would be a greater concern, as the chassis is wider than a Dallara: still, the Lola has apparently overcome the chassis flex problem, and done so without a major amount of engine bay reinforcement.

As for the crash integrity issue: Purist raised this point about a semi-stressed four cylinder IndyCar, as have the gentlemen above. My answer was, and remains, only speculative. Does the current IndyCar design philosophy expect that the engine and gearbox should remain attached to the tub in severe accidents?

At Indianapolis, Mike Conway's car was hurled into the catch fencing. It never hit the SAFER barier, and struck one of the catch fencing poles. The car immediately broke in half, separating at the mounting studs at the tub rear bulkhead. The engine and transmission bounced away from the tub.

So is this separation a design feature, or does it indicate the failure of one? Illien is correct when he says "...you're going to break the car in two because the lateral stiffness is not great...". We have seen this happen with stressed engine V8 IndyCars time and again.

When you look at Mike Conway's tub, or tubs from similar accidents, the rear bulkhead remains intact. That protects the fuel cell. That maintains the integrity of the tub, and the safety of the driver. Break the engine off, fine: just don't rip the rear bulkhead out.

That is how I presume the Dallara/ Honda is designed. That is how a Dallara with a semi-stressed 4 cyl would behave as well. So long as the torsional rigidity can be effectively maintained to provide consistant handling...as has been achieved in the Lola ALMS car...I am not convinced that the configuration is a compromise.

It just gets you a lighter car, which reduces the loads encountered during impact.

Of course, Illien has an agenda too. He currently has a contract with Honda to rebuild their V8's. I imagine he will want to keep that relationship intact, and profit from the development and maintenance of Honda's future V6. That's the position of a guy who doesn't want to see existing or future 4 cylinders bolted into an IndyCar, isn't it.

Tough to argue with engineering experts, or question their philosophies. I don't have an agenda, other than to look for the greatest range of affordable options, and figure out which ones will work. I still believe a semi-stressed four cylinder IndyCar will work just fine. We should be watching them race now.

[climb]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

There have been reports that the five different cassis manufacturers/designers are meeting here in Indy to pitch their options to the ICONIC group...those meetings are happening early this week...I believe that they started today out at IMS.

A link I have in Indy confirmed me your statement; Swift, Lola and Bat already audictioned, Dallara and (last) Deltawing to close the tour today. Dallara's presentation should be underway right now.

[Amar7605]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Amar,

Short story is that ICONIC is an advisory group, assembled to review the prospective chassis designs and forward their recommendation to IRL CEO Randy Bernard.

Bernard will then present these recommendations to the IMS Board of directors, who will make the final determination as to the future specifications.

Thanks!

[JagtechOhio]

As Tim pointed out, the panel's findings are supposed to be announced June 30.

By then we can hope to hear that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny each have new engine designs on the dyno, and will be delivering them at the appropriate dates. Happy Holidays.

[Whosyermon]

It's a little scary that the Delta Wing has stayed in the running this long.

However if stage presence is important it would be hard to top the coolness factor of Paul Tracy jumping into a Delta Wing in his rasslin' costume, cape and all.

[JagtechOhio]

WTHR.com writes:

"Wiggins runs a one-driver, small budget team. HVM Racing has a less competitive backup car, but no money to buy a replacement."

Same story for De Ferran/Dragon, as they wadded two cars at Indy and have no other chassis. So Davey Hamilton didn't race at Texas.

There are used Dallaras still available which are not being raced. New tubs are available, though they may not be for immediate shipment.

Point is that low budget teams cannot afford an additional chassis for $600K, or far less.

Tell Wiggins he needs $900k for a newly designed chassis and T car, and more for spares, to start the season. And he won't.

[Amar7605]

I personally think that the Delta Wing concept must have some merit since it is still in the running (or they are being accomodated so as to be fair to them), but it takes away from the 'open wheel' tradition.

To me it's as if a NASCAR Chevrolet and an F1 Ferarri had a child :-)

[Canada ALMS fan]

JagTech, the Dallara has to go. It's time. It is a remnant of a horrible era in AOW and is old enough to run in historics, hell Star Mazda has a newer chassis than Indycar. We may lose some teams short term but it is better than losing the entire series. It cannot be grandfathered or it steal the thunder of the next generation of cars and power plants, and dilute the new image Bernard trying to create. A few teams will disappear, no doubt, but several others will be lured into (or back to) Indycar. A net gain IMO if you wait a year or two.

[JagtechOhio]

Canada, in the best case, that's how it could work.

Of all the teams that can afford new chassis now...they are all supporters and investors in the Delta Wing project, unless any have dropped their allegience since February.

Annoucements of announcements is still the standard practice for the IRL, so we will wait to see who writes the checks before we know the truths.