Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Canada, in the best case, that's how it could work.

Of all the teams that can afford new chassis now...they are all supporters and investors in the Delta Wing project, unless any have dropped their allegience since February.

I thought only Ganassi had money in it? The others are behind it for bargaining leverage, I am sure their main concern is properly priced chassis' and parts going forward. Personally, I hope the Delta Wing isn't selected unless it is one of multiple manufacturers. (No one is discussing this option but that would provide real variety at Indy ) I hope Lola AND Swift are chosen.

[JagtechOhio]

The level of investment was not reported, but participants to the Delta wing initial funding included Ganassi, Penske, Barnes (Panther), Andretti, Reinbold (D&R), Kalkohven (KV), George (Vision) and Wiggins (HVM).

Whether this constitutes insignificant "membership dues" or a full committment to the project is unknown. Delta had requested Indiana state funding for construction of the prototype, which Bolwlby recently stated has not yet begun. They have a model and a comprehensive plan, now under review by the ICONIC panel.

Approval of the Delta, and the regulatory control requested by this group of owners, will satisfy much of the paddock. Who else will be served remains to be seen.

So does the outcome to the rejection of the proposal by the IRL.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

JagTech, the Dallara has to go. It's time. It is a remnant of a horrible era in AOW and is old enough to run in historics, hell Star Mazda has a newer chassis than Indycar. We may lose some teams short term but it is better than losing the entire series. It cannot be grandfathered or it steal the thunder of the next generation of cars and power plants, and dilute the new image Bernard trying to create. A few teams will disappear, no doubt, but several others will be lured into (or back to) Indycar. A net gain IMO if you wait a year or two.

IndyCar has got to move forward. The series needs new blood. A new chassis, preferably multiple chasis, designed to run on ovals and road/street courses is sorely needed. Bernard is trying to create a new image and getting rid of the Dallara would be very symbolic.

As you say it is a remnant of a horrible era in AOW and therefore I personally I would want to see the ICONIC group end Dallara's association with IndyCar.

I never felt the Dallara was an IndyCar; my opinion.

[Purist]

Jag, it's hard to say. However, based on some rudimentary calculations, even though the Indy Car is lighter, going at 230mph, compared to a maximum of 175-180mph for the LMP2 Lola, the Indy Car still carries ~30% more energy at its terminal velocity. That makes a real difference in design considerations when looking at all the options.

Just for another comparison, the LMP1s, which may reach up to 215mph at Le Mans presently, weigh 1985-2050lb, and so carry ~12-16% more energy at their terminal velocity than do the Indy Cars.

Finally, yes, Indy Car NEEDS to move forward. And the record keepers need to go back and remember that AJ Foyt has the all-time wins record with 67, I believe. That will put things in perspective.

[JagtechOhio]

No Purist, that's not the point.

The Dallara chassis fitted with a 575 HP four cylinder turbo, at an equivalent power to weight ratio, would be significantly lighter than a Dallara/ Honda V8.

Same velocity, less resultant force generated in identical crashes.

The total weight and top speed of sports cars is not relevant to the point I was making. Reference to the comparative weight of the Lola was made only to support the contention that torsional rigidity could be achieved in that heavier chassis. That has no bearing on the question of force generated on impact.

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

The level of investment was not reported, but participants to the Delta wing initial funding included Ganassi, Penske, Barnes (Panther), Andretti, Reinbold (D&R), Kalkohven (KV), George (Vision) and Wiggins (HVM).

...

Approval of the Delta, and the regulatory control requested by this group of owners, will satisfy much of the paddock. ...

several teams have abandoned the boat since the launch of the Delta Wing project; first of all, Penske have said square and fair that they would like to keep,the existing equipment; then Panther, D&R and probably Andretti have quit.

The problem is, after the initial enthusiasm, the Delta wing project has lost most of its fascination; realism has caught up, and the safety issues have become more and more important.
Just think of Conway/H-R crash at last Indy: what could have happened with a DeltaWing car?
We cannot forget a car is a device a person must get in and run at 230 mph, so a super original shape may captivate fans, but would drivers accept to drive a coffin?

Useless to say the final decision about DeltaWing can be only political i.e.: Do IRL/Hulman family want to have Tony George back on board?

[JagtechOhio]

'several teams have abandoned the boat since the launch of the Delta Wing project; first of all, Penske have said square and fair that they would like to keep,the existing equipment; then Panther, D&R and probably Andretti have quit."

Not accurate. Not worth agruing, either.

[marc sproule]

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no238.html

[Amar7605]

Maybe the problem isn't necessarily what is the best chassis or what the safest will be. I mean, yes it's important, but I think that they need to find a chassis that can make the races more competitive. I think we have seen too many open wheel races where it seems like the winner is determinied at qualifying or from the pits. As a fan, I would like to see a lot more passing at street and road courses.

Is there a chassis that can do that? I don't know.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

Maybe the problem isn't necessarily what is the best chassis or what the safest will be. I mean, yes it's important, but I think that they need to find a chassis that can make the races more competitive. I think we have seen too many open wheel races where it seems like the winner is determinied at qualifying or from the pits. As a fan, I would like to see a lot more passing at street and road courses.

Is there a chassis that can do that? I don't know.

Reynard and Lola made good allround chassis that worked well on ovals and road street courses. Maybe the teams should go back to using those?

[JagtechOhio]

Or they could closely examine the design submission of Galmer and Ashmore, who designed and built the cars you are referring to. Wardrop tuned them. That's who BAT is.

[ascarracinguk]

has anyone actually asked how the delta wing is meant to get around street circuits...it looks really unstable and a nightmare to setup....and lets face it....its blummin ugly....ok as a boneville car it would be great...but would you seriously watch a grid of them trying to get around long beach??

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

has anyone actually asked how the delta wing is meant to get around street circuits...it looks really unstable and a nightmare to setup....and lets face it....its blummin ugly....ok as a boneville car it would be great...but would you seriously watch a grid of them trying to get around long beach??

That has been asked before and I've yet to see an answer. It is ugly. There is that rFactor simulation of Delta-Wings going round TMS, on YouTube.

[Purist]

Actually, that could be VERY amusing watching them try to negotiate Long Beach, especially the Fountain Complex and the hairpin!

[JagtechOhio]

Bowlby knows exactly what he is doing. That's why the differential of the Delta is electronically controlled for torque vectoring. The steering is assisted by power application at the rear.

Of all the features that Delta promotes, this is one gets little play. It will be an expensive addition to the current spec. It will enable advantage to the best software engineers. It will be a feature incorportated into a race car that no current or future driver has experience with.

But it will corner, if it ever gets built.

God bless Uncle Bobby for stirring the soup. I wish he would have raised the subject of ride level control, which will be another expensive new addition to the spec that the Delta will require.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I wonder what Colin Chapman would have made of it?

[JagtechOhio]

Made what...

The hairpin at Long Beach?
The Delta Wing?
A new IndyCar?

[bjohnsonsmith]

The Delta-Wing.

[JagtechOhio]

He would have loved it, he was another innovative, eccentric British genius.

And everybody would have looked at it and said "get that piece of crap out of here, we can't race against that!"

Just like Long Beach 1981. Just like the IRL is going to say to Bowlby.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I remember Longbeach '81 and the Lotus 88. There's a thread that's just been opened on innovation in the F1 section on Ten-Tenths.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I wonder what Colin Chapman would have made of it?

Colin was an experienced and successful engineer - he would have laughed himself sick when he saw the Delta - there is no way known that that thing could negotiate a road course better than a shopping trolley!
It is a bad joke!

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

'several teams have abandoned the boat since the launch of the Delta Wing project; first of all, Penske have said square and fair that they would like to keep,the existing equipment; then Panther, D&R and probably Andretti have quit."

Not accurate. Not worth agruing, either.

Why? Maybe on this topic I know something more than you

[JagtechOhio]

Howdy climb,

I don't spend so much time on line to play contests or play expert. I'm trying to learn stuff. If you have something to teach me, go for it.

Here's what Penske said in an interview at Indy on May 28. If you have heard something from one of the other bit players, please share it but understand that I won't believe it will change the minds of the two most powerful owners in American motorsports. Apparently Penske and Ganassi are on the same page, and here is one of them.

"Q: For Roger and also if Chip wants to follow. Since Chip's already been playing chess like two years ahead with the Delta wing car and espousing innovation very strongly for this race in the series, what's your position on the return of true innovation to Indy and the Series, are you for it? And do you think it's critical to the revitalization of Indy car racing.
PENSKE: I think that change is always good. It's going to shake up the field. One thing we want to do is look at cost. I've followed the Delta Wing project from the beginning; I'm a supporter. I want to see a car built, and we've got to get the funding to build that car, get it on the racetrack, let people see it. There's an interest on four-cylinder versus six-cylinder engines. They want to have potentially a formula where you could have one or the other, which I think is good. There's a lot of interest internationally on four-cylinder engines which will be run in Formula One and DTM and rallying and maybe we have to have a derivative of that over there.
I think this is all good. Under the current process we're taking our time, everybody can be heard, we're just not making a bunch of rules in the back room because at the end of the day the car owners are the ones who have to pay for it. If we're going to make a change, let's make one that shows the fans we have something different and we have something economically and commercially that's beneficial for the teams. So to me I'm all in favor of it."

Complete interview:

http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...196&FS=INDYCAR

At St. Petersburg earlier this year, Penske was publicly less committal to the Delta. That was the only time he mentioned extending the life of the Dallara, or fitting an alternative engine to it. April 5 comes to mind, I'd have to look it up.

So if you have better information, that shows the current state of affairs, I'm all ears.

[climb]

Jagtechohio, I hope you caught the totally non-polemic drift of my post!

The fact is, these situations are strictly linked with politics, and official statements don't always tell the thruth about the prothagonists' real attitude and preferences.

What i report is what I could hear from contacts I have in Indianapolis, and express rumours and hints that will hardly find a place on the media.

Nevertheless, since we are not making a trial but just talking and discussing, I think they deserve to be posted even if no evidences are brought.

Will what I say prove completely true? probably it won't, but so what? We're not those encharged to decide, we're just fans exchanging opinions and news.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Colin was an experienced and successful engineer - he would have laughed himself sick when he saw the Delta - there is no way known that that thing could negotiate a road course better than a shopping trolley!
It is a bad joke!

From what I have found out the Delta-Wing uses Torque Vectoring, in otherwords the differential can be used to assist with steering.

In one respect it is a very bold move and very radical ideas can be scoffed at. When Sir Jack Brabham entered Indy in 1961 everyone laughed; he finished 9th on the lead lap and the rest as they say, regarding rear engined race cars at Indy, is history.

The biggest problem it faces is the wheels are partially enclosed and therefore it is not open-wheel.