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27 May 2011, 13:50 (Ref:2886712) | #26 | ||
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Do we know what part of the license Team has been done for breaching?
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27 May 2011, 13:51 (Ref:2886714) | #27 | ||
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Wasn't it to do with T-Shirts or something like that? Lotus Racing were slapping the logo on merchandise and other marketing materials outside of things covered by the contracts. I might be remembering it wrong but I think that's what it was all about.
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27 May 2011, 13:54 (Ref:2886715) | #28 | ||
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27 May 2011, 13:58 (Ref:2886717) | #29 | ||
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How is the issue of use of the Lotus brand ever going to get resolved? If the ruling states that Team Lotus are allowed to be called Team Lotus and Group Lotus are allowed to use plain old Lotus, how is anybody supposed to decide in future that one of them can't use the name that has been judged to be 'theirs'? Presumably as things stand, Group still can't have their own team and call their chassis a Lotus because F1's rules don't allow it, and I guess that's what they're trying to change, but you would think as part of the court case that Tony Fernandes & co have proved to the judge's satisfaction that they do indeed own the rights to use Team Lotus, so Group would have to go some to convince an appeal court otherwise...this is a bit much for my brain on a Friday afternoon.
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27 May 2011, 14:03 (Ref:2886719) | #30 | |||
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I don't see why that would stop there being a Lotus chassis and a Team Lotus chassis, but the consensus seems to be that that wouldn't be allowed so maybe I don't understand the rules 100%. |
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27 May 2011, 14:04 (Ref:2886720) | #31 | ||
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I think it's quite telling that Group Lotus published the full verdict of the judge while Team Lotus' reaction has consisted of Fernandes saying "yay we won" and another self-congratulatory PR statement
But such is the shrewdness of Fernandes' positioning of himself as the underdog, most people have believed him over them. Goes to show how powerful a good PR team is |
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F1 fans - over-reacting about everything since forever |
27 May 2011, 14:10 (Ref:2886724) | #32 | |||
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Seems a bit contradictory to me, as the verdict seems to categorically confirm that Group do not own the Team Lotus brand, but there we go. |
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27 May 2011, 14:21 (Ref:2886729) | #33 | |||
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That's how clever it all is. It's so subtle that most people haven't noticed. It's a device that's used quite a lot - making yourself look like the outsider, the underdog, the one you shouldn't be supporting. It's also used by people on the right like Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson - making it seem like holding politically incorrect views about things like immigration is in the minority when in actual fact it's not. The theme may be different but the application in the same |
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F1 fans - over-reacting about everything since forever |
27 May 2011, 14:30 (Ref:2886731) | #34 | |||
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In every other respect I feel Group Lotus were in the wrong. They launched this vendetta trying to stop someone else using the Team Lotus name, which they have no right to as they don't own it. As this judgement showed. And seeing as they don't own Team Lotus, they are, in my eyes, very lucky to get away with the aforementioned ties to the Team Lotus history. Edit: Jonathan Noble has linked to the full trial notes and I'm reading through them now... my opinion may change over the course of this lol Last edited by Fox89; 27 May 2011 at 14:40. |
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27 May 2011, 14:53 (Ref:2886738) | #35 | |||
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For me, the license breach is the most interesting part, even though we don't know what that breach was. Because that now means 1Malaysia weren't allowed to call their team Lotus Racing. The order of it thus changes - it means Fernandes was bringing the Team Lotus name in after Group Lotus had already established a presence in F1, effectively making them "2nd in the Lotus queue" |
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F1 fans - over-reacting about everything since forever |
27 May 2011, 15:06 (Ref:2886746) | #36 | ||||
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Right, I've read pretty throughly the 'conclusion' parts and would like to share some thoughts. Here's THE most relevant part in regards to the names/logos and who has the rights:
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Team Lotus as a trademark has been revoked due to non-use. However, 1Malaysia have 'Goodwill' via their acquisitions with TL and the TL Roundel, so they can use them. Group do not, but they DO have Goodwill with everything else Lotus. I believe Fernandes and co are reapplying for the trademarks, which I think will just be a formality. There are also a lot of things in that report about how "the defendants made such and such a claim, but did not do so at the outset and have not provided substantial evidence, so that claim is now dismissed". This is stuff like Group Lotus 'passing themselves off' as Team Lotus with their advertising materials and colour schemes. It seemed obvious to me that they were guilty of that, and from the wording of it sounds like lazy legal work on the 1Malaysia front. This is evident in a few places. In regards to the JPS colour scheme, the reasoning behind allowing group to use that is: "Well, JPS aren't objecting, Team Lotus do not own the scheme, and if Mclaren or someone were to use those colours you wouldn't complain. So the black and gold is 'up for grabs' and Team Lotus were beaten to it." Which is perfectly fair enough. I have definitely changed my view of this case after reading that. This was not by any stretch a victory for Fernandes and co. It was just not a heavy defeat. Legally speaking David Hunt caused the 1Malaysia outfit a few problems by not enforcing his trademarks in the last decade. I have seen nothing that contradicts my belief that this whole mess was largely caused by the entry of Bahar and his desire to do things so differently, and from a support perspective I'm still on Fernandes' side. But from a bureaucratic perspective the Team Lotus outfit did not perform all that well. Oh, and the 1MRT executives should be hanging their heads in shame about the merchandising breaches. This was nonsensical and completely avoidable. Check out this excerpt: Quote:
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27 May 2011, 18:11 (Ref:2886805) | #37 | ||
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That shark Bahar is now tied up in knots having ran around with Team Lotus' heritage.
Congratulations to Tony and Team Lotus. A worthy succesor to Chapman. |
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27 May 2011, 18:22 (Ref:2886810) | #38 | |||||
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27 May 2011, 18:30 (Ref:2886818) | #39 | ||
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Obviously you missed the long running joke on here of Danny Bahar buying all the nice comments about Group Lotus from various former drivers last year.
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27 May 2011, 18:34 (Ref:2886819) | #40 | ||
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I'm a little surprised by the judgment. In that, once he found Team Lotus had lost the right to the trademark, that anyone other than Group Lotus could use it. Especially given Fernandes licensed it from GL.
Had he not made that finding, I'd've agreed with the outcome; TL came first, GL basically traded off TL's reputation rather than vice versa. So when TL and GL separated TL should have first dibs on the name in F1, and that was backed up by the various inter-company agreements. But once TL lost the right to lose the name, surely anyone wanting to use Lotus in F1 would be trading on GL's reputation. I couldn't start Pagani F1, even though Pagani has never raced. |
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27 May 2011, 18:37 (Ref:2886821) | #41 | |||
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EDIT: Oh, I see. I think. |
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Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
27 May 2011, 20:33 (Ref:2886880) | #42 | ||
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27 May 2011, 20:42 (Ref:2886883) | #43 | |
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Nice....But looks like they lost on the REAL key issues I think! Thats why they make appeal, otherwise it wouldn´t make much sense if you´re the big winner, wouldn´t it? So -at least for the insiders up to now - there is only one Team Lotus left in F1. If Tony is patient, he should purchase the GL in a certain period of time.
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27 May 2011, 20:50 (Ref:2886884) | #44 | ||
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27 May 2011, 20:52 (Ref:2886885) | #45 | |
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This is my 4,000th post on this forum... I need to do better things with my life
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27 May 2011, 21:13 (Ref:2886893) | #46 | ||
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This is the BBC's take on it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/form...e/13572332.stm However there seems to be a contradiction; according to the BBC article, "Team Lotus were allowed to continue running under that name while Group Lotus will keep the black and gold livery, but cannot use the famous badge in F1." but according to the Judgement Summary on Group Lotus's website, "Group Lotus has goodwill associated with the name “Lotus” in Formula 1 and is free to compete in the sport under that name using the Lotus roundel" Somewhat confusing. |
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27 May 2011, 21:35 (Ref:2886904) | #47 | |||
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Group/Cars are hurt but not completely out. They can use Lotus sponsorship to advertise their cars on the Renault but they'll never be the iconic "Team Lotus" nor can they use Team's heritage unless there are buyouts or whatever. Although far from an ideal position Team is in the better position. They can call themselves Team Lotus and their F1 chasis is a Lotus. They can also have the option to call themselves Caterham Team Lotus. I'm less sure about this but they may even have the option to market certain Caterham models as Caterham Team Lotus in the same way that Renault labeled certain Renault Clio's models with the brand Williams. I presume there will be a buy-out of Group some time in the future. Their business model is very unsound and it depends how much taxmoney the Malaysians are willing to sink into the Group Lotus WorldWide Racing program. |
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27 May 2011, 21:46 (Ref:2886906) | #48 | |||
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and the Lotus roundel, They are very similar, especially from a distance and also if the car is going at speed. However that doesn't really deal with the apparent contradiction as to whether Lotus can use the roundel or not. |
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27 May 2011, 22:42 (Ref:2886921) | #49 | ||
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From my reading of the report (I couldn't face reading the actual judgement) I'm not sure whether Tony Fernandes's cars can be called Lotus. Clearly they can call their team Team Lotus but Group Lotus have the right to the name Lotus in Formula 1. So if Team Lotus can't call their car a Lotus, do they have to call it a Team Lotus?
It seems the judge thinks his legal colleagues haven't quite relieved the participants of enough money yet, so he has left things sufficiently ambiguous to suck them into a Round 2. I just want to bang their heads together. |
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28 May 2011, 00:36 (Ref:2886945) | #50 | ||
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We waited this long for a decision on this case and ended up with?
What a complete mess.. |
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