Series and Commercial Organisers

[Derwent Motorsp]

Having just read all the posts regarding the 09 Silverstone Classic and was thinking of a reply, I was surprised to find the thread closed. Can anyone explain why?
I think there is a very wide issue regarding commercial "series". The Masters may be the most well known as they have bought up several other series and now have quite a tight grip in certain areas. Let's be honest, the majority of series owners do it for money, not for the good of the competitors. A democratic club will respond to its members, a commercial organisation will respond to what makes it money. The two are not the same thing.
A typical example can be the selection of entries. Commercial series want people to do all the events and pay up in advance. Many club drivers can't make this commitment due to time, money or distance. The series may also, if events are over subscribed, "select" a varied grid, thus penalising those with the more popular (usually cheaper) cars.

There also may be issues with a non MSA affiliated organisation being in charge of the entries for an event run by an MSA Club under an MSA permit, in terms of finance and selection of entries which may not comply with MSA regulations and the SRs issued for the event.
While any MSA club that runs a championship, however small, pays a championship fee to the MSA and the championship is run under MSA regulations, the same does not apply to series run by non MSA bodies.

[john ruston]

The Silverstone thing turned into a deep discussion between two opposing schools of thought and was getting out of hand so JT correctly closed it.
Your post above eloquently explains the difference in thought process and make up of a commercial operation and those of a club.

[rogerwills]

I also was disappointed that thread was closed, only so I could put the Compte right after his angry and unnecessary outburst at me.

Unfortunately I only just caught up on today's posts and was shocked and stunned when I read his post.

The Masters policy has been for several years 28 days cancellation and I was simply pointing that out. Actually, I felt I was being helpful.

Can't wait to meet the lovely chap now!!

Roger

[John Turner]

A 'shocked and stunned' Wills; the mind boggles! It seems likely that Compte de Graves inferred something from your post that you didn't intend, Roger.

However, can we ensure that we stick to topic. No problem with mentioning Masters as long as we keep it balanced. In fact, I'm interested to know what the respective pros and cons of commercial and club enterprises in the context of historic motorsport actually are, since I've been involved in neither. Presumably, there are members here who have direct involvement in both?

[terence]

Truth be told ,every club has to make money,break the cost's down,postage,printing,phonecalls all add up and they are only the minor details,if a club is not making something from entry fee's/membership,how can it possibly survive,it's not often that the organiser is willing/able to partially fund it.We all have our own prefference's as to wether or not we want somewhere to sit and eat/chat with other members etc.

[Peter Mallett]

Ultimately I don't care. As long as there's somewhere to race and I know what to expect, why should it bother me or anyone else?

[John Turner]

Isn't it more about the quality of what's on offer, and at what cost? However, I take the point that if you are a racer, and you've got somewhere to race, that's probably enough for many.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Isn't it more about the quality of what's on offer,

For my class CTCRC via the BARC offers a great championship at most of the better circuits but in my case it is a bit illogical for me to enter it. Therefore I choose to run in a series.

Originally Posted by John Turner

and at what cost?

AFAIK there are 20 lappers for £250-£300.00, or if I go with the MGCC (et's say) I can get an hour race for around £450.00.

Originally Posted by John Turner

However, I take the point that if you are a racer, and you've got somewhere to race, that's probably enough for many.

It is for me. However IMO the main thrust of this thread is more about "monopolies" or at least perceived "monopolies". Then of course there's Redwater to consider who run one of the best long distance historic races on the calendar, or the Peter Auto organisation who (as I was recently informed) holds the keys to racing at Pau, LMC and other major tracks (Monaco?).

Frankly, apart from the locations or status of the events, as a competitor it matters not a jot who gets my cash. HSCC for instance do not cater for my class thus even if I did wish to join in there's no chance which is a kind of reverse monopoly don't you think?

[zefarelly]

here we go again

I say we . . .you lot is more accurate!

[Peter Mallett]

hmm,

You'll have to expand on that Zef, or is this a less than interesting subject?

[zefarelly]

the same repetitive conversation, like an old peoples home!

anyone would think your all working on site and bored out of your skulls . . .or as is more likely in theis climate, on the jam roll!

I only keep an eye as a mod is supposed to ( John ? )

[Peter Mallett]

Ah, agreed it does seem repetitive, perhaps as a mod, you could come up with something more vibrant and stimulating?

[simon drabble]

The difference is an obvious one. A club needs to balance the books and a commercial organization needs to get a respectable ROE to its backers. As such a club will normally provide cheaper seat time but the commercial provider will prvide more bells and whistles. That could take the format of on track catering, clothing, or just top meetings.
Neither is right or wrong just depends what your priorities are... if its purely racing to be honest you would be hard pushed to beat Britcar for VFM which is a dichotomy as of course its a commercial provider!!

[Derwent Motorsp]

Well I've been a motor club official for some 30 plus years and know the ins and outs of club finances. I think one of the big differences between a club and a commercial operator is when times are hard. The clubs can keep going at a lower level or even use reserves to keep events going, but the commercial fok are only there for the profit and will pull out when there is no money to be made.
Clubs are also subject to MSA regulations and fees, the commercial lot are not. While we may not like some of the MSA regulations they are arrived at via committees of people like us. For example clubs have to except entries (unless they vary the SRs) in order of receipt where as some of the commercial groups may want to have certain cars/drivers etc given preverence.

[simon drabble]

Derwent Motorsport I think that you are right. 2009 will be a testing time for some commercial operations....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Well I've been a motor club official for some 30 plus years and know the ins and outs of club finances. I think one of the big differences between a club and a commercial operator is when times are hard. The clubs can keep going at a lower level or even use reserves to keep events going, but the commercial fok are only there for the profit and will pull out when there is no money to be made.
Clubs are also subject to MSA regulations and fees, the commercial lot are not. While we may not like some of the MSA regulations they are arrived at via committees of people like us. For example clubs have to except entries (unless they vary the SRs) in order of receipt where as some of the commercial groups may want to have certain cars/drivers etc given preverence.

Good points and well made, but the other side of that coin is that some clubs may well refuse to allow cars/drivers who they consider have "defected" to commercial organisations to run with them again. Although in the economic climate that may not be an issue, it is a possibility.

[simon drabble]

a possibility I cant see ever happening - I have seen HSCC top table racing with Masters which is the likliest place for cross over

[Peter Mallett]

Ah but I've seen it muted.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Well I've been a motor club official for some 30 plus years and know the ins and outs of club finances. I think one of the big differences between a club and a commercial operator is when times are hard. The clubs can keep going at a lower level or even use reserves to keep events going, but the commercial fok are only there for the profit and will pull out when there is no money to be made.
Clubs are also subject to MSA regulations and fees, the commercial lot are not. While we may not like some of the MSA regulations they are arrived at via committees of people like us. For example clubs have to except entries (unless they vary the SRs) in order of receipt where as some of the commercial groups may want to have certain cars/drivers etc given preverence.

Absobl**dylutely correct. Do you want to pay over the odds for a good return for someone just for some food and a nice place to meet? Not me for sure.

[john ruston]

A club such as VSCC is a bunch of mates with the same interest.They organise Functions way beyond racing for their members.They are certainly not in it to make a profit but cater for the enjoyment of the members.Occasionally they have race meetings that allow commercial organisations to join them as Donnington this year.It works and is run by members and managed by a small staff of really good people who act on needs of members as a Sport or pastime.

A commercial operation has to view racing as a product and racers/entrants as customers so obviously a different mindset.For them it has to be a return on investment only.

The difference is that with a club you as a member are part of the whole thing,with any commercial operation the bottom line is you are a bit playing customer.The trick is to run a commercial operation and make people think they are in a club,not many can pull that one off.

[simon drabble]

I think Carol is one of the few who did...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Ah but I've seen it muted.

I would just like to point out that because it was "muted" I could only see it. Had it been "mooted" I would of course have heard it.

Glad I got that sorted. Carry on.

[Philip Venables]

To answer Peter Mallets earlier query, Momaco is run by the Automobile Club Monaco, not Peter Auto

[Peter Mallett]

Ta.

[Simon Hadfield]

Momaco? is that where wealthy mothers retire to? (sorry.....)