[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Spyderman]

It would please me if you were right.

[porman]

Originally Posted by jimclark

the all conquering 917 was a first year flop, the Spyder was a first year flop

4,517

Not to jump on you but to call the 917 and the Spyder (9R6) first year flops is a bit of a stretch. Most know that the 917 suffered early-on from some evil handling traits. Mechanically there were some teething issues but it showed pace from the onset. I was all over the 9R6 at its debut and it faired quite well. Yes, it too had teething issues but again I wouldn't call it a "first year flop". I guess I am a half full kind of guy

[Velociraptor]

V4 block is extremely strong, so if the vibrations are kept in check, power is not an issue.

Alteenativelly, they could use a modified 918's 4.6 V8 engine - it's very light and compact, has DFI and makes 610 hp in street spec. In fact, I'd like to see a GTE 918 but that's not going to happen, sadly.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor

Alteenativelly, they could use a modified 918's 4.6 V8 engine - it's very light and compact, has DFI and makes 610 hp in street spec. In fact, I'd like to see a GTE 918 but that's not going to happen, sadly.

That is an engine based on the "old" RS Spyder 's V8. Outdated.

[Velociraptor]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

That is an engine based on the "old" RS Spyder 's V8. Outdated.

it's based on the experience gained from the RS Spyder engine. It's NOT an enlarged Spyder V8. It's a completely new engine, done by the same guys and gals responsible for the RS Spyder's powerplant.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor

it's based on the experience gained from the RS Spyder engine. It's NOT an enlarged Spyder V8. It's a completely new engine, done by the same guys and gals responsible for the RS Spyder's powerplant.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news
The engine is built on the same architecture as the one used in the RS Spyder Le Mans Prototype racing car without any engine belts.

"The 918 Spyder is also named after the RS Spyder. Its V8 engine provided the basis for the combustion engine in the high performance hybrid". - Porsche

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I think that Baretzky will want to design a proper modern race engine: small displacement, direct injection, VGT turbo or F1 style turbo with MGU-H, maybe "hot side inside", ...

Instead of starting from that old school V8 designed by an external supplier (Neil Brown Engineering).

small displacement......hmmm......that means more revs , which equates to higher friction and greater fuel consumption.........it wouldnt surprise me to see porsche enlarge the capacity of their 2.0L V4 to something like 2.2 or 2.5L in an attempt to bring the rpm down and save on fuel consumption.......the rumour doing the rounds is the AER V6 is between 3 and 4 litres, which will be very favourable for low rpm and low fuel consumption for a non hybrid car.......I think some teams already realize that 1.6L style F1 engine has no place in LMP1 racing as its fuel consumption will be too high due to high revs......but never say never, if Ferrari rock up with a 1.6L V6 LMP1 program, i'm sure the ACO will bend over backwards to make it competitive in terms of performance and fuel economy.

[Velociraptor]

that is not true. Read Frank Walliser(head of 918 project) interview for details.

918 engine is completely new.

[Spyderman]

Download the PDF directly from the Porsche site:
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/918/918-spyder/

The engine was reconfigured and redeveloped, but the basis is the same.

Here is Walliser talking about a "race bred engine"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qvpgaMnIZU

[Velociraptor]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Download the PDF directly from the Porsche site:
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/918/918-spyder/

The engine was reconfigured and redeveloped, but the basis is the same.

That is just Porsche trying to cash in on motorsport success. The 918 uses a completely new V8 that has been designed with RS Spyder's lessons in mind. Block is new.

[Spyderman]

Right...back to the LMP1.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by knighty

small displacement......hmmm......that means more revs , which equates to higher friction and greater fuel consumption.........it wouldnt surprise me to see porsche enlarge the capacity of their 2.0L V4 to something like 2.2 or 2.5L in an attempt to bring the rpm down and save on fuel consumption...

Question Knighty: Will increasing the capacity of the 2.0L V4 to say 2.5L result in increased bore and thus heavier pistons? Will this not have an impact on the vibrations in a V4?

- Mods: Please feel free to move this to the Porsche thread.

[carbon_titanium]

If porsche can't solve the vibrations issues, I guess they will be forced to use a V6 block if they want to increase displacement.

[Spyderman]

I think they have resolved the vibration issues at the current format. Will an increase in capacity cause the resurgence of the issue?

[knighty]

Really it depends how they increase the capacity, they could use bore, or stroke or more likley a combination of both...... for the increased stroke aspect, to keep the piston side loadings sensible, and therefore friction low, they will also need to increase the deck height of the cylinder block, but we are only talking about 3-5mm or so here and there, added onto the bore or stroke.....not 20mm.

As the engine is a 4-cylinder turbo, the boys from Porsche would know up-front that the thermal management of the piston is a huge factor for durability, so they are probably using a gallery cooled piston, that has an insane amount of oil squirted at it on the underside, with a nice jet of oil that is squirted directly at the entrance of the pistons cooling gallery.......traditionally a gallery cooled piston is not light, also as the engine is not particularly high revving a sub 200gram F1 style piston really is just a waste of time.........my suspicion is they are using a 2-piece steel piston with an internal oil gallery cooling channel.......generally speaking for this style of gallery cooled piston, more oil is squirted at them than is consumed by the rest of the entire oil system - they drink hard!.......but the net result is a nice cool piston that goes the distance.

yes the weight of the rotating and reciprocating parts will have an impact upon the torsional resonant frequencies generated at the crankshaft, so they would need to re-study the effects of this and adjust where appropriate........I understand Porsche are now expert at this, so probably already have a well tuned Anysis FE model that they could start to play different tunes with

[Spyderman]

Thanks Knighty.

[knighty]

A pleasure!......thinking a bit further outside the engine, I can imagine the engine has literally no "fat" baked into it, its a bespoke 2.0L item trimmed to minimum size and weight........therefore 2-5mm changes to bore and stroke will impact the engine length and crank height in the chassis, so then you will need a new bell housing, and dare I say a new gearbox with a higher input shaft.......so then all of a sudden a few 3-5mm changes here and there means a whole new rear end of the car, but lets be honest, this is the Porsche-LMP1 works team, they will not blink at the cost or timing of such changes, this will be considered as ongoing development, all in the cause of winning......unlike a privateer team, who would probably feint at the mere talk of such changes!

[Spyderman]

Here are some of the job openings for the LMP1 project. They may give some indication of what is afoot.
http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/...sach&fulltext=

[knighty]

that's interesting, but the reality is all of those positions constitute a full LMP1 team, therefore all are currently filled, but what many high-pressure engineering organisations do is keep the adverts open in order to keep a steady flow of CV's for when the current engineer gets burned out or gets a bigger money offer at an F1 team.......or - wakes up, smells the coffee, gets a proper engineering job, with a social life, a wife, and 3 kids, house + morgage, but crucially you only work a maximum of 38 hours per week, and you get the weekend to yourself to actually relax.......just like I did!.......I now get my motorsport fix via teaching my 8 year old son cadet karting, and its far more rewarding than working for some egotistical race team.......

I seem to remember some statements on mulsannes corner that this is already happening, whereby the Porsche LMP1 team already has a high turn-over of staff, a lot of engineers have already come and gone......its high pressure at the sharp end of the grid, people get used, burnt out and move on......

[Maelochs]

You have a wife and three kids, you don't get a weekend to yourself until the last one turns 18 or 20.

[knighty]

your so old school.....we go karting literally every weekend!.......here is evidence :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYfM3WDBUE

the black cadet kart is my 8 year old son.....before you ask 52mph

sorry mods......back on topic!

[Articus]

Could Makowiecki end up in the LMP1 Porsche some day?

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Articus

Could Makowiecki end up in the LMP1 Porsche some day?

I like mako, and I hope he can get inside the 919 as regoular driver (surely will be faster than webber). In early 2012 he was going to sign for peugeot.

[Articus]

Porsche is going to be seriously short on factory drivers next year if they are planning to run a 3rd car in addition to the Manthey car's and the driver they loan to each customer 911.

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Originally Posted by Articus

Could Makowiecki end up in the LMP1 Porsche some day?

If he does, he will be the greatest Porsche factory driver ever since when he left Aston Martin and Honda IMO.