2011 Bathurst 12 Hour

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

We're just two blokes from polar opposite sides of the field who actually participated in the event and are extremely passionate about our different teams and marques. Copy that EB? participate...not fence sit. And we both vent and have some fun on this forum.

Diatribes about how Porsche have lost their way since the 917 had more relevance somehow to B12 hour?

Now I'm sure you'll feel aggrieved and probably come back with a resume of driving/official/mechanical history that spans 50 years...relax, just pointing out there's no need to be a nark.

Understand what you say and where you are coming from. Did not mean it to come across so agressively, it was more as a fun dig over what was at times a bit 'broken record', but blame that on a big night and a slightly addled status when I posted. Apologies. I guess, far from being a sit on the fence type, I am more of an agree to disagree person when faced with such clashes of opinion, as opposed to continuing an issue with such polar differences that by nature are beyond compromise.

But now you have explained the ongoing nature of the differences I understand more the intense cross referral and scrutiny of every comparable stat from both sides and the tone of some of the 'banter'..

What I will say is that the one thing we can all celebrate and agree on is that all of those that took part, regardless of badge, budget, resources, performance or willie size, all combined to produce a great days entertainment enjoyed and appreciated by a lot of people, directly or via multimedia, in many parts of the globe....myself included and for that I thank all teams equally, and look forward to all yours and many more teams participating again next year..

And, just because you anticipated a historical angle somewhere, I apologise not for thinking Porsche have never been the same since the 908 / 917 eras. It comes with having been fortunate enough to watch the likes of Kinnunen, Willy Kauhsen, the Martinis at Silverstone Interseries races in the early seventies. No other car has ever so captivated me as those mighty machines. We all have our opinions and reasons for them.
[/"resume of driving/official/mechanical history that spans 50 years"]

[Sheep Stations]

And, just because you anticipated a historical angle somewhere, I apologise not for thinking Porsche have never been the same since the 908 / 917 eras. It comes with having been fortunate enough to watch the likes of Kinnunen, Willy Kauhsen, the Martinis at Silverstone Interseries races in the early seventies. No other car has ever so captivated me as those mighty machines. We all have our opinions and reasons for them.

No argument from me EB about the halcyon days. After 30 years with the marque on a personal and business level, the 70's and 80's Porsche wins piqued my enthusiasm for the sport...and made me as painful as FFC in vocal support of my chosen brand.

Anyway, onto next years B12hour. My suggestions would be no 'local' parity, run to FIA GT3 rules,2 seeds (assessed independent of organisers) and timed stops but no minimum number so that economy can play a part in overall strategy.

...and get a woman to organise the trophies, only a bloke on a budget and in a hurry could have picked this years junk. I've seen best and fairest under 12 rugby trophies that would leave for dead the 'piston cups' given to the winners this year. It's an International event, I'm embarrassed for Audi to have that thing pride of place back at HQ.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

Anyway, what did everyone think of the event - great success or epic failure ?
Race was good from the Perspective of Audi putting on a lesson

Question and answer in the one quote.
But seriously, was the event a convincing improvement on previous years?
I was a critic of the GTs entering, and I couldn't get down there this year so my comments are based on the internet streaming and hearsay from mates.
It was a very entertaining event for anyone with a love of beautifull cars and great racing. It seemed to maintain it's atmosphere of fierce but friendly competition, and it gave enthusiasts the first opportunity to see top international competition at Bathurst since the Taxi takeover.
I loved it and, barring the sort of problems I had this year, will certainly be there next year.
As an event that appeals to the casual sport or TV armchair fan I'm not so sure. Much will depend on the standard of the 3hr special on One on Friday evening. As beautiful as they are, do the Audis, Porsches, Ferraris etc have the sort of appeal to attract a mass audience?
I think, with a bit of rule tweaking, it will become a very successfull International event, and become just popular enough to spoil the "access all areas" atmosphere that is so great.
Unfortunately though it has lost the potential to become the "see my car race" showcase that could have attracted a much wider attendance and TV audience.
But then I guess that was unlikely without significant manufacturer and importer involvement.
One thing the event has proved over the past couple of years is that live streaming, if accompanied by a great commentary, can provide a great way of watching motorsport.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Anyway, onto next years B12hour. My suggestions would be no 'local' parity, run to FIA GT3 rules,2 seeds (assessed independent of organisers) and timed stops but no minimum number so that economy can play a part in overall strategy.

I agree with the pit stops sheep stations, dont have an issue with timed stops and abolishing minimum number of stops.

I am all for opening the rules to allow for teams to select their own steerers regarless of 'subjective' seeding. The current rules are way to ambiguous and result in the Audi vs VIP Porsche issue and will ultimately drive people away.

That said there needs to be a way of keeping the event relevant to Australian amatuer GT car owners.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I agree with the pit stops sheep stations, dont have an issue with timed stops and abolishing minimum number of stops.

I still don't get the timed pitstops, why remove a fundamental element of endurance racing?

[rjg]

Sorry but I cannot work out how to quote a post, but in regards to Oldtony post

"As an event that appeals to the casual sport or TV armchair fan I'm not so sure. Much will depend on the standard of the 3hr special on One on Friday evening. As beautiful as they are, do the Audis, Porsches, Ferraris etc have the sort of appeal to attract a mass audience?"

I believe that having the Audis, Porshes etc racing at the 12hr will appeal more to the casual TV viewer than the production cars. The reason I believe this as that most people dream to own a car of this type and being able to see them race at an event like the 12hr would be very appealing.

[Oldtony]

Hope you are right rig, but the usual reason given for getting rid of the Sierras, Jags and Godzillas was that they were not cars driven by the average punter. Same goes as the reason given by many for the demise of the 2 litre series with Audi, Volvo etc.
One could of course say the same about BMWs, EVOs WRXs and even HSV or FPVs.
At present the V8s hold that part of the audience. Can they continue to do so as they become increasingly irrellevant to the mass market?

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by racer69

I still don't get the timed pitstops, why remove a fundamental element of endurance racing?

Safety first and foremost. It would be pretty hard to cut much time from a compulsory 90 second pit stop anyway...so take some of the urgency away and they get done quickly, cleanly and safely.

Do less of them to get the jump on the competition rather than gain .05 of a second in pit lane in a mad flurry of fuel, tyres and driver change.

[cptkablamo]

I think for pitstops, rather than a 90 sec stop, rules should be introduced to make the stop longer (like ACO with 1 wheel gun, no touching tyres while fuelling) that kind of thing and definitely no predetermined amount of stops...it is part of the competition.

As for the 'viewer-ship' I don't think that they can ever expect this to be as big as V8 Supercars but saying that, there is more growth potential in a sportscar event. With the event in this prod/sportscar format you do get the best of both. As much as people like to go on about 'seeing your car win' I really have to doubt whether that is a draw anymore. if it was such a draw, would the B12H organisers have looked to go in the sportscar direction? Do that many people really drive Evos and Imprezzas anyway - and how many of those people want to watch an enduro - are those people watching rallying and drifting? Something at the other end of the motorsport spectrum.

It is hard to argue that the sportscars/production format can't work, it works in a lot of places in Europe, America, Mid East and at Sepang, just gotta fine tune it to the Australian car owners and audience.

[EfiOz]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Anyway, onto next years B12hour. My suggestions would be no 'local' parity, run to FIA GT3 rules,2 seeds (assessed independent of organisers) and timed stops but no minimum number so that economy can play a part in overall strategy.

...and get a woman to organise the trophies, only a bloke on a budget and in a hurry could have picked this years junk. I've seen best and fairest under 12 rugby trophies that would leave for dead the 'piston cups' given to the winners this year. It's an International event, I'm embarrassed for Audi to have that thing pride of place back at HQ.

All very good ideas. The, errr, misunderstandings over driver eligibility was a little annoying. That needs to be cleared up.

I was pleasantly surprised by the size of the crowd. I hadn't been to any of the previous events so I wasn't sure how many people really turned up.

And there seems to already be a bit of a buzz from competitors about next years event.

[EfiOz]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

I think for pitstops, rather than a 90 sec stop, rules should be introduced to make the stop longer (like ACO with 1 wheel gun, no touching tyres while fuelling) that kind of thing and definitely no predetermined amount of stops...it is part of the competition.

It is hard to argue that the sportscars/production format can't work, it works in a lot of places in Europe, America, Mid East and at Sepang, just gotta fine tune it to the Australian car owners and audience.

Nah, the 90 sec pitstop was a better idea than I thought. Especially for teams that really only do that sort of thing rarely.

The mandatory number of stops was a better way to introduce some parity without weighing down cars.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by 12 Hour Release

TV ALERT: WATCH THE ARMOR ALL BATHURST 12 HOUR ON ONE

Highlights of the Armor All Bathurst 12 Hour will be broadcast on ONE HD this Saturday, 19 February.

The three-hour package will air in prime-time at 7:30PM (6:00PM in Western Australia) and will feature all of the exciting action and drama from the race, including the intense battle for the victory between the pair of works Audi R8 LMS GT3s from Audi Race Experience Team Joest, and the VIP Petfoods Porsche driven by local hopes Tony and Klark Quinn and Craig Baird.

The Production car battle between Mitsubishi, Subaru, Holden and BMW will also be showcased.

Cameras around the circuit, in cars and – in a new innovation – physically on our pit reporters will ensure every angle is covered.

ONE HD Motorsport commentator Greg Rust will call the action alongside former V8 Supercar champion Garth Tander, with Grant Boyden in pit lane and Briony Ingerson and Chad Neylon filing behind-the-scenes stories from in and around the Event.

The three-hour package will be replayed twice on ONE HD in the subsequent week.

So don’t forget:

ONE HD, SATURDAY 19 FEBRUARY at 7:30PM (6:00PM in WA).

Replay times: Monday 21st February and Thursday 24th February (Check your TV guide for further details).

More about the Armor All Bathurst 12 Hour can be found at www.bathurst12hour.com.au

Lets see if the race looks good, tells a good story, on the teev!

[Spiller]

Looking forward to watching it on the TV. Unfortunately couldn't get up there as I'm banking brownie points to have Easter away.

I'm with most on the timed stops stay, mandatory amount of stops goes. Timed stops is a good way to ensure you don't need to outlay a tonne of cash in buying the best guns, having a ripper pit crew etc. Putting in big $$ in research on liquid dynamics for fuel rigs etc. Especially for a once a year event.

Running to FIA GT3 regs could mean cars from anywhere turn up to have a go as they know they wont be paritsed down. Without knowing what's going to happen when you turn up, I could imagine having a ? over your cars eligibility requirements would deter a lot of people.

[rich07]

Well apparently those local parity restrictions detered the Reiter Gallardos from entering, which is a big shame as they would've been a sight to see.

Im in favour of a fixed time for pitstops too, its good for safety and it does disadvantage as much the Australian teams that havent done much endurance racing.

But I think the determined number of pitstops has to go, on one hand it'll disadvantage the older cars the most if it goes because they cant make up the time on the faster newer cars in the pits but sticking with a minimum number of stops seems a bit artificial to me.

[AussieV8]

I was all for keeping it to the production cars but I worked the event and motorsport is what it is....The promoters have lifted the game on this race and with several more teams interested in 2012 I say that the future is bright...its a shame that many of the production car teams boycotted the race but they have 4 long didtance races thru out the year and also their sprint rounds...

The GT cars sounded awesome to say the least....

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

with all the rib-cracking banter I forgot:

If your blokes were so fast, how was it we out-qualified you?

Was it cyber problems? (whatever they are, don't tell me I don't want to know)
Cool suit malfunction?
Bio-rhythyms?
Crook tummy?

ah, been away for a few days (tassie wooden boat festival FWIW, ace event, highly recommend it)

anyway, you out qualified us because overall, at THAT TIME of the event, you were faster than us... it's really quite simple...

hectors eyes were on stalks when he drove the track for the first time, and as anyone knows, it takes while to get fast there.... AND, we crashed in qualifying... twice.. Luke had a slow spin and a nudge, then hector did a proper job of it. We almost withdrew the car, the damage was worse than we thought initially, and thanks to many up and down pit lane for loaning welding equipment and skill and time, to fix it all up.

We couldn't have done the later qual if we'd wanted to, and we did for hector to get more laps. His best of a 2.22 for the weekend was pretty good, but it took about 50 laps or so to get there. As I said though, when the car allowed it, we were fast enough to beat sheep etc... Allan 2.12.3, Luke 2.13.4 and hector 2.22.

A cyber problem is one of those Italian things.. the computer thought the car had a problem (it didn't), so stopped the camshafts variating their timing.. which cost us about 8-10 sec per lap with Allan driving.... we lost so much, But It just needed clearing in the ECU in the pit stop. And in THAT pitstop we stuffed up the cool suit box strap which made us pit again.... oh well....

YES we would have loved to have been 5th not 6th, and we were fast enough to have beaten the sheep and crew... but we were beaten on the day, albeit by a slower car/team

We're still delighted to have gone as well as we did. I did some numbers this week, we ran that car ridiculously cheap, and take great pride in just getting there at all! never mind beating all the other cars below 6th (and Maranello car )

bad luck to maranello (and EFI OZ) though, they put in a huge effort too and it would have been even better for all if they'd got to the end.

Oh well, next year....

Hectors car left to return to Scotland today, I doubt it'll be back, but never say never!

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by rich07

Well apparently those local parity restrictions detered the Reiter Gallardos from entering, which is a big shame as they would've been a sight to see.

Im in favour of a fixed time for pitstops too, its good for safety and it does disadvantage as much the Australian teams that havent done much endurance racing.

But I think the determined number of pitstops has to go, on one hand it'll disadvantage the older cars the most if it goes because they cant make up the time on the faster newer cars in the pits but sticking with a minimum number of stops seems a bit artificial to me.

The pit stops worked ok.

The older cars only had to stop 9 times, the newer were 12. It seems irrelevant now as most stopped more than their allowance (notably not sheep and crew ) , and as always the race is all about spending the least amount of time in the pits.

In hindsight, I think the 07 and 08 Lambos should have run, and maybe even Teds 2010 spec car with 12 stops would have still been a chance.....

As always, Bairdo and crew were onto it.. stopping on lap 1 to get one done, although I think the rule needs tweaking to have a window around lap 9 or 10 to stop that, but good on them this year

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by scudd

i was in the car from lap 50 on wets when the track was dry except for pit straight which was very wet hence why the team placed wets on the car. i couldn't push the car as the wets would be destroyed plus you can't compare my times to allan's. though feel free to compare mine to hector's. i nearly ran up his arse several times through the day.

thanks for the news, but regardless of any of what you say Rog, sheepy is wrong about Allan/Kingers comparable lap speed, and THAT is what I was clarifying.

You did a great job, really. Although why you'd blame your poor long (and noisily) suffering hard working team for fitting wets i have no idea... tyres are ALWAYS drivers call... perhaps your team didn't feed you info about others times? but you would have seen for yourself out there anyway to some extent

You're faster than hector though, happy to concede that. And hector has won races and had pole in Aus GT, so perhaps it's best you go do some Brit GT and see if you can kick some more arse! DARE ya

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

You're faster than hector though, happy to concede that. And hector has won races and had pole in Aus GT, so perhaps it's best you go do some Brit GT and see if you can kick some more arse! DARE ya

Nah, he has a hard enough job with the intense competition in GT3 Cup Challenge...no point going back a grade or two to pick fights.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Nah, he has a hard enough job with the intense competition in GT3 Cup Challenge...no point going back a grade or two to pick fights.

Ha! Good one...

easy to say...... hard (but not impossible) to prove.....

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

thanks for the news, but regardless of any of what you say Rog, sheepy is wrong about Allan/Kingers comparable lap speed, and THAT is what I was clarifying. :

I am a bit late to your party guys-- couple of observations for all--I know both these guys (SS & FF) quite well --they are both real genuine enthusiasts and love motorsport with a passion and are both good people. So dont take there words here as being to aggro to each other.Only thing I can think of as worse is having to share garage space with either of them !!!( neither of you need to comment thx!!!)
Re Kingsley Vs Simonsen
I think Matt does a great job at the wheel-- see my comments written some time ago about him-- definately worth watching. At this stage of his driving he is not in the same class as Alan. Across a great variety of cars Alan is a proven Pro who shows great speed whenever and whatever he drives. He also has another characteristic with his driving that is always there--- he rarely crashes -- and is always fast. I think most of us watched a great Australian race driver(the greatest?at least with a roof over fhis head) who seemed to have an uncanny ablity to almost never crash-even early in his career. I grew up admiring that characteristic and respecting that in race drivers.
Alan has that characteristic and it will be one of the reasons he gets paid to drive for many teams all around the world.In reality-- in any capable car-- Alan will be fast and close to its potential.If we were trying to compare-- a Craig Baird would be closer to my thinking .At this stage of Matts development it is probably necessary for him to develop the keeping the car in one piece syndrome if he wants to keep getting invitations to drive that can help him realise his potential.
Regardless-- I thought he did a great job in this race and the whole team deserves high praise and congratulation on a terrific result.

[EfiOz]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Lets see if the race looks good, tells a good story, on the teev!

Great! I get to see this sterling example of factgory driving in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yhMywmBXag

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by EfiOz

Great! I get to see this sterling example of factgory driving in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yhMywmBXag

That was a tad embarrassing

[Belly13]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

ah, been away for a few days (tassie wooden boat festival FWIW, ace event, highly recommend it)

anyway, you out qualified us because overall, at THAT TIME of the event, you were faster than us... it's really quite simple...

hectors eyes were on stalks when he drove the track for the first time, and as anyone knows, it takes while to get fast there.... AND, we crashed in qualifying... twice.. Luke had a slow spin and a nudge, then hector did a proper job of it. We almost withdrew the car, the damage was worse than we thought initially, and thanks to many up and down pit lane for loaning welding equipment and skill and time, to fix it all up.

We couldn't have done the later qual if we'd wanted to, and we did for hector to get more laps. His best of a 2.22 for the weekend was pretty good, but it took about 50 laps or so to get there. As I said though, when the car allowed it, we were fast enough to beat sheep etc... Allan 2.12.3, Luke 2.13.4 and hector 2.22.

A cyber problem is one of those Italian things.. the computer thought the car had a problem (it didn't), so stopped the camshafts variating their timing.. which cost us about 8-10 sec per lap with Allan driving.... we lost so much, But It just needed clearing in the ECU in the pit stop. And in THAT pitstop we stuffed up the cool suit box strap which made us pit again.... oh well....

YES we would have loved to have been 5th not 6th, and we were fast enough to have beaten the sheep and crew... but we were beaten on the day, albeit by a slower car/team

We're still delighted to have gone as well as we did. I did some numbers this week, we ran that car ridiculously cheap, and take great pride in just getting there at all! never mind beating all the other cars below 6th (and Maranello car )

bad luck to maranello (and EFI OZ) though, they put in a huge effort too and it would have been even better for all if they'd got to the end.

Oh well, next year....

Hectors car left to return to Scotland today, I doubt it'll be back, but never say never!

Hector won't be back?

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Belly13

Hector won't be back?

I'm sure he will, but probably not with that car, and probably not if they don't address the parity imbalance.

The 06 430 GT3 is NEARLY as fast as an 08 GT3 cup S.

And, seeing as Allan did a 2.12.3 and Steve owen did a 2.10.0, parity within the class was a whopping 2 sec off.

Our 430 had to run to regs that expired in 08, since then there has been further EVO's to the car homologation, regarding weight and performance, that were not allowed, which is simply silly.

As the oldest and slowest car in our class, we still had to de-tune it to be elligible.

But it's easily fixed (by intelligent people ), so lets hope they do.