24h Nürburgring/VLN

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Babapapa

They car was well in the pace of the GT3-cars and the sound was much to joy of the spectators!

Was everything else fine? Any damage or some new insights in coherence with the Nordschleife?

Once we made a few set up changes cars ran really well. We were 6TH OA when we were Black Flagged for noise.

Our best time before being Black Flagged was 8:12.

Thoughts and Prayers with everyone.

[Rodger Davies]

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this.......

So yes, what you say is true and I agree, but the car clipping the back on the catch fencing at the exact angle to vault the catch fencing and land in an area in which people happen to be seated is not the 'fault' of the car or the driver, and I'd argue that it's not something anyone could have reasonably predicted. If they had done, it would not be FIA grade 2 certified.

Please let's stop trying to pin blame on anyone for an unfortunate set of circumstances which no one could reasonably have predicted occurring. Lessons have been learned (in the worst way possible), measures will be taken.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by CTD

(This is not just a reaction to your post, but all posts not blaming the driver).
The driver cannot be taken out this equation at all, especially not the experience of the driver.
An experienced Nürburgring driver know that the Flugplatz will give you a little bit of air time.
A good experienced racing driver knows his car and it's weakness. One of Nissan's being airtime at Flugplatz.
If the driver knows that he/she is coming in too fast at Flugplatz, in a car prone to airtime, he/she should lift the throttle a little before, to take down the risk of being airborne.

While this place is known for making cars unstable and GT3 cars (not just the Nissan) getting a bit air has been a regular sight in recent years, I just seriously doubt any driver going over Flugplatz expects to take off if he doesn't lift off a bit. An actual flip has now happened, twice* ever? The line between taking off and not taking off is miniscule. I don't find this comparable to, lets say, driving too fast into a turn, and then spinning as a result, because that is expected and even then driver can try to control the situation.

* This and Manfred Winkelhock decades ago in an F2?

[Mal]

Interesting video - maybe the organizers should consider moving the spectator area further away from the track at that point as it is clear that airborne incidents are not new and therefore cannot be unexpected at the that point.

Alternatively they could consider shaving off the top of the hump as the ACO did at LM after the Mercedes Airways incidents

[GingerPixel]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this.......

So yes, what you say is true and I agree, but the car clipping the back on the catch fencing at the exact angle to vault the catch fencing and land in an area in which people happen to be seated is not the 'fault' of the car or the driver, and I'd argue that it's not something anyone could have reasonably predicted. If they had done, it would not be FIA grade 2 certified.

Please let's stop trying to pin blame on anyone for an unfortunate set of circumstances which no one could reasonably have predicted occurring. Lessons have been learned (in the worst way possible), measures will be taken.

An extremely sensible post.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this.......

So yes, what you say is true and I agree, but the car clipping the back on the catch fencing at the exact angle to vault the catch fencing and land in an area in which people happen to be seated is not the 'fault' of the car or the driver, and I'd argue that it's not something anyone could have reasonably predicted. If they had done, it would not be FIA grade 2 certified.

Please let's stop trying to pin blame on anyone for an unfortunate set of circumstances which no one could reasonably have predicted occurring. Lessons have been learned (in the worst way possible), measures will be taken.

Yes, I agree, all that happens after the car is airborne is a freak accident further escalated by poor guidance towards the spectators (see my previous post about the guardrail). However, it is the driver and team/manufacture who is to blame for getting the car airborne in the first place.
A driver shouldn't go flat out full speed over Flugplatz on some of the first laps, in the same way you don't go flat out into a blind corner.

[scudd]

Originally Posted by CTD

A driver shouldn't go flat out full speed over Flugplatz on some of the first laps, in the same way you don't go flat out into a blind corner.

I don't think so.

not being able to go flat out on a race track for fear of the car becoming airborne is totally different to not going flat out round a corner because the tyres ultimately lose grip. it's a track issue if your car becomes a plane, not the driver's.

[Deleted]

I'm 50-50 on whether call this knee-jerk or not - depends on how the situation evolves.

Even if they re-allow the GT classes shortly before the 24 hours, it's gonna leave massive number of unprepared cars and drivers to take the start. Oh and obviously the "qualifying race" is now pretty much killed off

It would be pretty old school looking if the ban was still in effect for the 24 and it temporarily returned to the era of lower performance touring cars. Which class out of the ones not in ban would be among the fastest?

[Rodger Davies]

The TT-RS' would walk it I think. Maybe v the Astra GTCs and those Black Falcon 991s over race distance.

Basically, the entire first plateau of starters is out, as far as I can tell.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

The TT-RS' would walk it I think. Maybe v the Astra GTCs and those Black Falcon 991s over race distance.

Basically, the entire first plateau of starters is out, as far as I can tell.

I would think they'd let the GT4s back in and perhaps ban the SP4T TT-RS as the bans right now just aren't very consistent.

[wdave0]

I think the real issue here is that spectators were in a potential impact zone. I suspect they knew they shouldn't be there but wanted a good view of the cars getting air. (Think Rally). The answer is not to ban the cars, but to move the spectators back.

[Coach Ep]

For those of you who are not familair with the situation at the Flugplatz area.

The steep uphill where the lift off started and the following fast right hander are actually just before Flugplatz (which is basically nothing more than a right hand kink at the 4 km marker and named after an old air strip close by), see:

The entire Ring nowadays has safety fencing at spectator areas which is situated on a 8-10 ft* high bank behind the guardrail which, in like many places, is preceded by a (double) row of tires.

[*I haven't measured the height of the bank but believe me, it's not only high but also rather steep - I've done the trip from on top of the bank down to the guardrail - and back! - quite a few times and it's not a piece-o-cake!]

This is the view from marshalspost (streckenpost) 80:

And from MP 78/79:


Another example (from MP 153):

The combined height of bank + safety fence is close to 20 ft. - if not more.

As said before: spectators are officially allowed directly behind the safety fence, the organizers even allow scaffolds and what's more constructed against it (Hohe Acht area):


It took a fully airborne car to clear the safety fence - contributed largely by the reinforcing effect of the tire stacks when the car hit the beginning of it, which made the car somersault along and eventually over it.

(also notice the subtle similarities with McNish's 2011 Le Mans crash as well which could have resulted in an even more devastating disaster:
)

Hopefully this little insight provides a better understanding of things.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by scudd

I don't think so.

not being able to go flat out on a race track for fear of the car becoming airborne is totally different to not going flat out round a corner because the tyres ultimately lose grip. it's a track issue if your car becomes a plane, not the driver's.

Why is it the tracks issue if the car becomes a plane?
It is the driver who detriments how fast he is going over the kink. It is the teams/manufactures who decides the level of downforce to keep the car down.

How can it be the track which needs to change, and not the driver and car, who easily can do i?

[Richard117]

I think the easiest way to get the banned cars back in before the 24h is to make that section a permanent yellow, like the hairpin in Macau. In Macau it is to avoid overtaking, here they can force cars to slow down there.

After that there is time enough to think about track or car changes.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Richard117

I think the easiest way to get the banned cars back in before the 24h is to make that section a permanent yellow, like the hairpin in Macau. In Macau it is to avoid overtaking, here they can force cars to slow down there.

After that there is time enough to think about track or car changes.

Yellow flags sadly only work to avoid overtaking for must drivers.
As a Marshall I often see drivers, driving just as furiously through a Yellow zone as when it is green. The only thing slowing them down is if there is a slower car in front, where they can be penalised if they overtake.

[Gregory S]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I meant the WTCC

Oh, sorry. I didn't understand it correctly.

[Richard117]

Originally Posted by CTD

Yellow flags sadly only work to avoid overtaking for must drivers.
As a Marshall I often see drivers, driving just as furiously through a Yellow zone as when it is green. The only thing slowing them down is if there is a slower car in front, where they can be penalised if they overtake.

So penalize them for driving too fast
Off course it's not the best solution and against the spirit of racing, but i think it's the easiest thing to introduce in this short time.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Richard117

So penalize them for driving too fast
Off course it's not the best solution and against the spirit of racing, but i think it's the easiest thing to introduce in this short time.

Believe me, we are trying (at the circuit where I work), but it is very hard to prove that a driver isn't slowing down.
Perhaps the WEC solution of forced speeds in certain zones would be good? (electronic limiters controlled by GPS)

[Coach Ep]

I would prefer a technical adjustment to the cars as temporary remedy, increased ride height and smaller front splitters to begin with and - as a more permanent solution - outlaw flat bottom floors.

Besides that the Ring (and other tracks as well!) have to look at the specific spot of the accident and similar areas where lift offs happen frequently and consider making changes - either to the track, run off areas (including modifying/replacing existing tire barriers) or spectator zones.

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by Richard117

So penalize them for driving too fast
Off course it's not the best solution and against the spirit of racing, but i think it's the easiest thing to introduce in this short time.

I'm sure drivers get penalised during VLN/N24 if they don't slow to a certain speed through yellow flag zones (GPS is used to check speeds as far as I am aware).

[August]

A very unfortunate accident. RIP to the spectator. And best wishes to Jann and and the injured spectators, hoping the the spectators get well soon and Jann gets over this.

I don't know what should be done. If no other changes will be made, surely spectators must not be allowed to be there anymore. But even if there were no spectators, that would've been a dangerous situation for the driver. I wouldn't like the track be changed, not even the hump lowered, changing Nordschleife would feel just wrong. Rather try to make the cars less prone to get airborne there. And if the track gets deemed too dangerous for GT3, then I rather see them going than the track changed. Of course, the track company may think in a different way and even make necessary changes if that's required to keep GT3.

[pierre_ch]

Very interesting and factual analysis here:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/m...b-9410503.html (in german)

[Speed-King]

All the talk about changing the track or banning spectators from certain zones really doesn't touch the true problem: The inconvenient truth is that VLN and the 24hrs have been broken for a couple of years now.

There have been spades of races prematurely red-flagged over the last few seasons and the overall driving style has become just so much more aggressive for a variety of factors but ultimately as a result of the professionalization of the series.

The VLN of old used to work precisely because it was largely a club championship and people raced responsibly and respectfully and probably not always at the limit of what their cars could do, but rather a bit more laid back in true old school endurance style. All that seems gone nowadays with the advent of what is often called the "four-(or twenty-four)-hour-sprint races". With so much prestige at stake and money invested, going anything short of flat-out doesn't do anymore, but at a track like the 'Ring, that comes with a price. Though we have seen similar developments at other GT3 races, most notably Bathurst and Spa.

Either way, the flat-out approach seems to have also infected the lower classes (perhaps in part through the proliferation of one-make-cups to make up the numbers, where you can no longer really hope to out-engineer or outlast the competition), so there are many people that are going at it way too hard - and in some cases, due to the increasing costs (cf. professionalization again) these are people of the more-money-than-brains-persuasion.

Painful as it may be, if VLN wants to survive, they need to turn back the clock on the professionalization and get back to a more club race kind of format.

[Starfish Primer]

I agree with Speed-King, the VLN went out of control. Too many pro lineups and huge difference between the first and the last, specially if we consider the Ring factor.

[Metzo]

Originally Posted by deggis

Assuming WTCC used same configurations, less aero and power is not showing much in the lap times:

Spa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FI...m#Qualifying_2
http://www.dailysportscar.com/Upload...alifying_1.pdf

Slovakia Ring:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2014/0...ing-times.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FI...a#Qualifying_2

JAS tested the Civic during a VLN round last year and where over 50 seconds slower than the fastest GT3 cars http://www.vln.de/includes/download....014-09-13t.pdf (position 31)