Silly season special - Suggest a way forward for F1 engines.

[duke_toaster]

FOTA suggested 1.6 V6 Turbos. Max wants to keep the freeze for a rather long time. A while a go some nut suggested 2.2 V6 Turbos.

Now, as a Silly Season Special, what can Ten Tenths come up with for after the credit crunch?

[Dani Filth]

1.0 V12 turbo

[Matt]

2.0l I4 N/A.

[Marbot]

FOTA actually suggested 1.8 V6 Turbo's.Basically taking another two cylinders off the current engine.Which,for the purposes of cost,is the way to go.

[duke_toaster]

Re original post : DOH! Any chance of someone with the Hand of Mod changing it?

I suggest the following - yes, it's the longest post so far in this thread, but not one of my usual War And Peace posts

Fixed power and torque limits (750hp/560kW and 300 Nm) - This can be generated using any fuel available at a normal petrol station. Power could be traded for torque depending on fuel (*cough*diesels*cough). 8 race engines.

Engine must be the same capacity +/- 200cc and the same number of cylinders as a road car lump* and have such a part number, but otherwise doesn't need to bear any relation. Rotaries, VVT, direct injection and similar permitted provided it is on the nominal basis engine. Badge engineering permitted.
*Not that high a maximum, Renault's V12 Clio homologation special could be rather fun.

The power and torque limits could be checked by rolling road tests that would take place at weekends and out-of-competition. If an engine is over-power it can simply have its rev limit wound down a little, and if it's overtorque (mainly it would be a diesel issue) it could lose a bit of boost.

Either in-weekend fuel economy bonuses for the constructor's championship, or do it at a special testing session in the summer break. As it's five engines it would be 30-24-18-12-6 or something. Fuels equalised based on price.

Dani, congratulations in the 6000th post

Edits

[Matt]

No diesels in F1 EVER. PLEASE.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Re original post : DOH! Any chance of someone with the Hand of Mod changing it?

I suggest the following - yes, it's the longest post so far in this thread, but not one of my usual War And Peace posts

Fixed power and torque limits (750hp/560kW and 300 Nm) - This can be generated using any fuel available at a normal petrol station. Power could be traded for torque depending on fuel (*cough*diesels*cough). 8 race engines.

Engine must be the same capacity +/- 200cc and the same number of cylinders as a road car lump* and have such a part number, but otherwise doesn't need to bear any relation. Rotaries, VVT, direct injection and similar permitted provided it is on the nominal basis engine. Badge engineering permitted.
*Not that high a maximum, Renault's V12 Clio homologation special could be rather fun.

The power and torque limits could be checked by rolling road tests that would take place at weekends and out-of-competition. If an engine is over-power it can simply have its rev limit wound down a little, and if it's overtorque (mainly it would be a diesel issue) it could lose a bit of boost.

Either in-weekend fuel economy bonuses for the constructor's championship, or do it at a special testing session in the summer break. As it's five engines it would be 30-24-18-12-6 or something. Fuels equalised based on price.



Edits

I don't think Renault make a car with a capacity of more than 3 litres or with more than six cylinders and I don't suppose that in the current economic climate that they would bother to exceed those figures.Still,a V12 Clio would be rather fun,but the current V6 is more than enough for most.

[Satorian]

No engine regulation except for standard fuel, and fuel allotment and maximum pollution allotment per session. Would be interesting to see what the teams come up with.

[duke_toaster]

Renault have a 3.5 V6 (one piked from Nissan). Renault have a two litre turbo available in the Megane, a 1.2 turbo available in the Twingo and if they want to go down the NA route, which would probably not be that used, they could use the aforementioned V6 as a basis.

Most manufacturers would have ample choice of engine parameter (not a base engine really because they can be exeedingly different), and under the badge engineering rules Ferrari would be able to name their engines after Alfa Romeo or FIAT units, and in deed badge them up as Alfa Romeo or FIAT.

Matt : How's about making the limits for diesels slightly less competitive so there won't be too many of them, but still letting manufacturers that want them in - if the rules are right and they want to promote tractors, VWAG could get in

Satorian : Group C style, eh ... one or two issues there - firstly costs, and how would the pollution allotment be counted? Would it just be car exhaust emissions or an all-inclusive figure? Would there be a mandatory engine life as it's not exactly green to have an engine that needs junking after 90 minutes of use.

[Bononi]

Isn't it being discussed somewhere else ?

[duke_toaster]

Don't think so ...

[Marbot]

You can't just ban or limit diesels because no one likes them.Sure they don't make a very loud noise,but noise is wasted energy isn't it.

[Bononi]

Sorry, just checked the other thread, it's alright.



That should be... interesting.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

You can't just ban or limit diesels because no one likes them.Sure they don't make a very loud noise,but noise is wasted energy isn't it.

The sound is a very important part of it though, no other race car that I know of sounds like an F1 car...

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

You can't just ban or limit diesels because no one likes them.Sure they don't make a very loud noise,but noise is wasted energy isn't it.

Yes, and the more wasted energy the better.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Yes, and the more wasted energy the better.

[Pingguest]

What about keeping everything open?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

What about keeping everything open?

That sounds.................expensive!

[Bononi]

There are many ways to keep everything open.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

What about keeping everything open?

McLaren will announce that their engine will now be supplied by Rolls Royce - but not the bit owned by F1. For some reason I think the GPDA won't like jet engines in F1 for safety reasons, and Bernie won't want to fork out for the new cameras needed.

[Oldtony]

Agreed sound is part of the show, but so is technical interest and some sense of purpose for the whole circus.
Why not a stock block? F1's probably most powerfull engine ever had one from a production sedan. Human assisted niteriding and extra machining allowed of course.
Personally I would go for a 1.5ltr turbo based on any stock block. 3 races per engine.
Power limited by fuel flow with the flow rate varied by the green credentials of the fuel in use. i.e max fuel flow for say algae bio mass based fuel, and minimum for oil based non renewable hydrocarbons, with agricultural bio ethanol or diesel some where in between.
Add an uprated KERS or hybrid ability, a return of electronic aids and the result would probably need some tinkering with flow rates and fuel quantity per race to keep speeds under control.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Marbot

That sounds.................expensive!

Is having different principles moving in different directions really more expensive than trying to squeeze the last few percents out of an essentially spec part?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Agreed sound is part of the show, but so is technical interest and some sense of purpose for the whole circus.
Why not a stock block? F1's probably most powerfull engine ever had one from a production sedan. Human assisted niteriding and extra machining allowed of course.
Personally I would go for a 1.5ltr turbo based on any stock block. 3 races per engine.
Power limited by fuel flow with the flow rate varied by the green credentials of the fuel in use. i.e max fuel flow for say algae bio mass based fuel, and minimum for oil based non renewable hydrocarbons, with agricultural bio ethanol or diesel some where in between.
Add an uprated KERS or hybrid ability, a return of electronic aids and the result would probably need some tinkering with flow rates and fuel quantity per race to keep speeds under control.

Thats technically interesting and challenging but.....
I am going to throw something else in here. The essence of F1 is the WDC.
The constructors championship only came into being after Bernie took over and decided to recognise the teams through a title for the construcors after suggestions the 'garagistes' weren't real manufacturers. That was sometime in the 70's or 80's.
Once Bernie had ddecided there was no way he wanted the Simtek's, Pacific's and Andrea Moda's of the world in prequalifying sessions he arranged what was essentially a franchise system limiting the grid to 12 teams or 24 cars, (approved players) and the emphasis on the importance of the 'construcotors championship' has been heavily endorsed by Max ever since.

My whole attitude is that the place for technical development and experimentation is in sports cars and endurance racing, production car development is in GT/Touring cars and the WRC, and F1 is about the drivers championship.

That would however require a multi-pronged approach that Max and Bernie have consistently stomped on since they canned the touring car title after one season back in the late 80's early 90's, and have killed off FIA sports car and endurance racing, only a resurgent Le Mans organisation has saved international sports car racing for us whole max and Bernie strove to direct all attention to F1 to ensure thay more resources went in that direction than anything.
A lot of this "F1 is the ultimate peak of all motorsport disciplines" has only occurred in the last fifteen-twenty years. Before that F1 was the ultimate in driver championships but not manufacturer or technical development.

Directing most of the manufacturer participation into F1 has made it the area of primary technical development but it doesn't need to be that way. And personally I think the sport overall would be a whole lot healthier if it wsn't that way.
Part of the whole cost explosion problem in the sport is the narrow focus of manufacturer and technical funding into a very narrow range of motorsport activity that has created a huge imbalance in technical developments, costs and media attention that hasn't served the sport as a whole very well at all.

And now we are starting to reap the consequences of that imbalance.

[kurtiejjj]

I agree, bring the 1.5 litre turbos back! Based on a stock blocks with any amount of cylinders. Addtionally I would propose the mix the petrol (or some kind of biofuel) with hydrogen, might seem a weird thing to do, but it works (according to BMW)! And eventually change completely to hydrogen fuelled internal combustion engines.

F1 always says that they want to be at the forefront of new techniques, well they have the chance to do so with hydrogen, so get on with it Max and Bernie!

[Oldtony]

Agree with you comments Teretonga.
The constructors championship actually started in 1957, the first being won by the car in my avatar, the Vanwall.
Really the best soloution would be for the WDC to be just that, raced in spec cars like GP2 or A1GP, and the Constructors championship transfered to Sports Cars with a mix of sprint and endurance rounds.
Don't hold your breath waiting for Bernie or Max to bring this about after, as you say, castrating touring cars and sports cars to bring all the power and publicity to F1
By the way at the start of the Constructors championship Bernie was Stewart Lewis Evans manager, had an interest in Conaught, and was recovering from some injuries sustained in an F3 500 race