Shelsley-The Sub Twenty Second Record Debate Thread

[robert77]

It's not so many years ago that marshals and officials at Shelsley Walsh were talking about the first sub-25 second run and who would succeed in doing it. That person turned out to be Graeme Wight Jr in his V6 powered Gould GR51. Now, some 6 years on the same people are starting to talk about the next big Shelsley milestone, the sub-20 second hill record.

Sparked off by a conversation between Shelsley CM, Woolley and myself on 20th July during the Classic Meeting whist posted at Bottom-Ess Following the conversation, it got me thinking; when WILL we see the first sub-20 second run at Shelsley? I for one think that with the way thiongs are going right now, we will be witnessing the first sub-20 run within the next 5 to 8 years. I certainly think that many of the current crop of Shelsley marshals will be there to witness what will be an amazing feat.

Technology these days, moves at a fast pace and with brakes and tyres forever improving and chassis and engines getting lighter, not to mention racing surfaces getting better grip wise, who knows where the Shelsley hill record will end up in the next 20 to 30 years.

As for future record holders? Wellcurrent record holder, Martin Groves for sure will be the favourite to lower the mark again. Graeme Wight Jr in his V10 Predator, I'm sure would like to put his name on the list again. Current BHCC leader and local lad, Scott Moran is sure to add his name to the list.

But there's someway to go yet and we are expecting another slice to be taken off the record at the Peter Collins Celebration Meeting in August. There's one thing for sure, it all makes for exciting talk in the marshals campsite and in the paddock. It's going to be an exciting weekend for everyone.

[Woolley]

Not something I'd speculate on without some input from the guys running the cars. In practice, there's no reason why 20 shouldn't be possible in time.

There was a big rush of improvement in technology - probably lots of bits - that dropped the record from 25 to low 23s. The last couple of years have been chipping away a bit at a time so I don't expect to see another big leap for a while. The question is, how many chips will it take to get there, and how long? And how much difference has the surface made which will begin to degrade and so presumably work against improvement in the cars.

Finally, will the cars be allowed to keep getting faster or will regulation intervene? They're already close to 150mph into Bottom Ess and with momentum being the square of speed, how fast will be considered toooo fast and something get done to slow them? Another nearly 3 seconds would need an approach speed of... 165mph? And the same across the line. Which is fine, until something breaks.

So, if we're looking at your suggestion of 8 years, who might it be? I'd agree all of your list will have put their names on the record books by then, and it would be no surprise to see names such as Trevor Willis, Tom New, Robert Kenrick, Ash Mason or Eynon Price up there by then. Who knows who else will have ascended the ranks?

[biker mart]

Originally Posted by Woolley

So, if we're looking at your suggestion of 8 years, who might it be? I'd agree all of your list will have put their names on the record books by then, and it would be no surprise to see names such as Trevor Willis, Tom New, Robert Kenrick, Ash Mason or Eynon Price up there by then. Who knows who else will have ascended the ranks?

I would put Jos Goodyear in the mix too, he will either be there or at least in Simon & Charlottes front living room !

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Not something I'd speculate on without some input from the guys running the cars. In practice, there's no reason why 20 shouldn't be possible in time.

There was a big rush of improvement in technology - probably lots of bits - that dropped the record from 25 to low 23s. The last couple of years have been chipping away a bit at a time so I don't expect to see another big leap for a while. The question is, how many chips will it take to get there, and how long? And how much difference has the surface made which will begin to degrade and so presumably work against improvement in the cars.

Finally, will the cars be allowed to keep getting faster or will regulation intervene? They're already close to 150mph into Bottom Ess and with momentum being the square of speed, how fast will be considered toooo fast and something get done to slow them? Another nearly 3 seconds would need an approach speed of... 165mph? And the same across the line. Which is fine, until something breaks.

So, if we're looking at your suggestion of 8 years, who might it be? I'd agree all of your list will have put their names on the record books by then, and it would be no surprise to see names such as Trevor Willis, Tom New, Robert Kenrick, Ash Mason or Eynon Price up there by then. Who knows who else will have ascended the ranks?

I think the highlighted part pretty much says it all for me...

I cant see the cars getting that much quicker in the distant future as I think someone from upstairs will start to make regulations to haul back development in the name of safety.

[Pistonbroke]

Some of the words in Robert & Woolley's posts seem to be links to adverts. I've not seen this before - is it a new feature of the forum or do we have a bug on this thread?

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Pistonbroke

Some of the words in Robert & Woolley's posts seem to be links to adverts. I've not seen this before - is it a new feature of the forum or do we have a bug on this thread?

I think its to do with the subscribe or dont subscribe thingymijig

If you do subscribe then the words dont link to advertisements

[Steve Wilkinson]

If the hill record is slowly chipped away as Wooley suggests then I do not think that there will be an "intervention from on high". However if there is a big shunt then expect a thorough examination of the venue.

If the 'powers that be' want to slow the cars down going into Bottom Esse then the only way this can be achieved is to slow the speed through Kennel Bend &/or Crossing. How this could be achieved would be debateable but it might involve an alteration to the course layout!

As to when we see the first sub-20 second run that could happen anytime either Scott or Martin string together the perfect run.

If you look back to the last century in 1951 the record stood at 37.27, ten years later in 1961 it had been reduced by 7.7% to 34.41. By 1971 the record had been lowered by 13.1% and stood at 29.92. In 1981 the record stood at 26.42, a reduction in the preceeding decade of 11.7%. Then from 1981 to 1991 the record fell just 2.2% to stand at 25.86 in 1991. Since then the record has been slowly reduced and in my opinion will continue to be so.

[Woolley]

[off topic]Adverts is a new trial thingy, and as Steve says, can be switched off by subscriging[/off topic]
Trouble with changing venues is that you can never properly catch up. If you change Kennels and Crossing, then you're going to have to start casting your eye around every other venue with quick corners and anything approaching a straight - Hollow and Finish at Gurston, Cedar straight at Loton, a large proportion of Doune... Not practical. The courses are as safe as they ever were (how safe that is is a differenet discussion), many of them safer until you throw in a huge increase in car speed. Bottom Ess used to be impossible with an approach in excess of 118mph, now it's fairly straight forward 30mph quicker.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Trouble with changing venues is that you can never properly catch up. If you change Kennels and Crossing, then you're going to have to start casting your eye around every other venue with quick corners and anything approaching a straight - Hollow and Finish at Gurston, Cedar straight at Loton, a large proportion of Doune... Not practical. The courses are as safe as they ever were (how safe that is is a differenet discussion), many of them safer until you throw in a huge increase in car speed. Bottom Ess used to be impossible with an approach in excess of 118mph, now it's fairly straight forward 30mph quicker.

I would agree however as pointed out earlier in the discussion an approach to Bottom Esse at approx. 148 mph with momentum being the square of speed could lead to an horrendous shunt should something on the car break.

I am not advocating change, only speculating that there is a possibilty under certain circumstances. I for one would not want to see Shelsley Walsh or any other BHC course change, however if it is a question of change or close then I feel sure change would be the option to take.

[Moose Baiter]

The 19.99 second run would require an increase in average speed of approx 12.3 mph (90.07 to 102.33) I think this could only happen with a very rapid increase in development of the cars, probably requiring a fully "active"car in terms of suspension, differential, traction control etc.I not saying in can`t be done but 5 years I would suggest is unlikely. I would'nt like to be the one behind the wheel at the speeds it would require on the lower part of the hill. It's bad enough getting the brain and vision to keep up with car at current speeds.

[CNHSS1]

im pretty sure we all agree the technology exists to produce the car required, but as the hills are the bastion of the amatuer (long may it continue) and not a step on the 'career ladder' (Priaulx being the exception), i cant see the development being all that quick without the sponsorship or manufacturers huge money pot.

[quickbadgers]

Originally Posted by blackx

I think the highlighted part pretty much says it all for me...

I cant see the cars getting that much quicker in the distant future as I think someone from upstairs will start to make regulations to haul back development in the name of safety.

Wasn't there talk a couple of years ago of limiting cars to a 2 litre engine? That would be a simple way of limiting speed and reducing the cost as well.

Trouble is it makes a lot of expensive toys redundant.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by quickbadgers

Wasn't there talk a couple of years ago of limiting cars to a 2 litre engine? That would be a simple way of limiting speed and reducing the cost as well.

Trouble is it makes a lot of expensive toys redundant.

There was and it is...

Trouble is it would also cripple the venue as well as those who have spent x amount on an all singing all dancing single seater..

[b1ackcr0w]

Another alternative might be to put chicanes into long straights... <shudders>

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

Another alternative might be to put chicanes into long straights... <shudders>

I would have thought that an extention to the track between Kennel & Crossing which turned to the left and featured a series of tight 90 degreee bends would keep the speed down sufficiently. This 'extention' need only be used for the British & Midland rounds with the original track being used for the remaining meetings.

This would (a) preserve the original track, and (b) obviate any other major changes.

Personally the thought of chicanes is abhorent!

[rescue dude]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I would have thought that an extention to the track between Kennel & Crossing which turned to the left and featured a series of tight 90 degreee bends would keep the speed down sufficiently. This 'extention' need only be used for the British & Midland rounds with the original track being used for the remaining meetings.

This would (a) preserve the original track, and (b) obviate any other major changes.

Personally the thought of chicanes is abhorent!

The MAC committee will be turning in their graves at the very idea!!!

[Woolley]

LOL, and that's the current committee you're talking about!

[b1ackcr0w]

I'm not keen on the idea at all. But the reason I mentioned it was because if it turns out to be an alternative to not getting a track licence or worse, fatalities, then it's one that might have to be considered.

[robert77]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

If the hill record is slowly chipped away as Wooley suggests then I do not think that there will be an "intervention from on high". However if there is a big shunt then expect a thorough examination of the venue.

If the 'powers that be' want to slow the cars down going into Bottom Esse then the only way this can be achieved is to slow the speed through Kennel Bend &/or Crossing. How this could be achieved would be debateable but it might involve an alteration to the course layout!

As to when we see the first sub-20 second run that could happen anytime either Scott or Martin string together the perfect run.

If you look back to the last century in 1951 the record stood at 37.27, ten years later in 1961 it had been reduced by 7.7% to 34.41. By 1971 the record had been lowered by 13.1% and stood at 29.92. In 1981 the record stood at 26.42, a reduction in the preceeding decade of 11.7%. Then from 1981 to 1991 the record fell just 2.2% to stand at 25.86 in 1991. Since then the record has been slowly reduced and in my opinion will continue to be so.

Just as I thought, a topic to provoke some friendly logiacal debate! You can all blame me and Woolley for me starting it!

Steve, I think I'd have to agree with your comment the most. As with most (if not all Shelsley goers) I'd hate for "them upstairs" to start banding ruin-some changes around at Shelsley and as you and Woolley say, if the record is chipped away in small stages, there will be no need for such silly moves.

[Megashed Teaboy]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

The MAC committee will be turning in their graves at the very idea!!!

Personal dig there ????

My two peneth is this, having delt with the HSE with an accident in an already considered dangerous topic they dont care, the club will have to be doing risk assessments on any eventuality so i guess there is a procedure for any problem that may happen, and in the event of an accident this set of paperwork would be used as evidence in court, and belive me it would go to court, Motorsport is Dangerous signs will not cover anything off as some people cant read, spell etc if asked in a court of law. I think that something needs to be done sooner or later as anyone who is used to HSE risk paperwork will tell you an accident can and will happen unless you remove all contributing factors.
It would not be a problem to say in five years time remove the over 2 litre cars from the british championship, this would mean they can still run but not go in the run off, with say 5 more years to be allowed on the hillclimbs. They could then run on sprints with better facilities at circuits no problem.
I know this is going to be really un popular but would loosing the venues be any better??
And before anyone says it drivers know the risks, some spectators dont thus this is the problem. There are some places a knowlegable spectator would not stand but you only have to look at rallies to see idiots around.
Bottom line is everyone including myself loves the big class cars but are they now too quick for venues that have not changed really in upto 100 years.

Cheers

Rich Whitefoot (not scared to hide behind my sign on)

[b1ackcr0w]

I'd like to be able to disagree with some or all of that, but that's only because as Rich says, we all love the >2000cc class.

However my head tells me, that's probably the direction we're heading.

[Woolley]

But how much of the increase in speed is down to engines? I'd hazard a guess that it has more to do with aerodynamics, tyres and brakes. Personally I'd start chipping at all of those areas first. I suggest that cars have been capable of reaching 135+ on the approach to Bottom Ess for quite a few years, it's only recently that they've been capable of doing that and still making the corner.

[rescue dude]

The bike engined cars are making such incredible times because they corner much faster than the big engined cars due to their weight presumably.

Not hiding behind anything Rich.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Megashed Teaboy

Personal dig there ????

My two peneth is this, having delt with the HSE with an accident in an already considered dangerous topic they dont care, the club will have to be doing risk assessments on any eventuality so i guess there is a procedure for any problem that may happen, and in the event of an accident this set of paperwork would be used as evidence in court, and belive me it would go to court, Motorsport is Dangerous signs will not cover anything off as some people cant read, spell etc if asked in a court of law. I think that something needs to be done sooner or later as anyone who is used to HSE risk paperwork will tell you an accident can and will happen unless you remove all contributing factors.
It would not be a problem to say in five years time remove the over 2 litre cars from the british championship, this would mean they can still run but not go in the run off, with say 5 more years to be allowed on the hillclimbs. They could then run on sprints with better facilities at circuits no problem.
I know this is going to be really un popular but would loosing the venues be any better??
And before anyone says it drivers know the risks, some spectators dont thus this is the problem. There are some places a knowlegable spectator would not stand but you only have to look at rallies to see idiots around.
Bottom line is everyone including myself loves the big class cars but are they now too quick for venues that have not changed really in upto 100 years.

Cheers

Rich Whitefoot (not scared to hide behind my sign on)

Personal dig there ????


Have to agree with BC's take on your post as well Rich :-)

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

The MAC committee will be turning in their graves at the very idea!!!

You'll forgive this 'non crypt' member for spinning in sympathy then.