[LM24] F1 vs LMP1

[the menace]

Everytime i visit Lemans, i wonder just what a contempary Grand Prix racers lap time would be if it were to blast around the full curcuit. After seeing the Pug diesel blitz the lap record this year, i'm not sure if an F1 would be quicker.
I think the F1 may well come away with it's tail between it's legs.
What do you think?

[Adam43]

Unfortunately not. The lighter and more powerful F1 car would beat the time. It wouldn't last 24 hours, but then that isn't its job.

The early '90s Croup C cars were nearly on the F1 pace. The Pug is quicker than those cars, but current F1 cars are much quicker.

[Dutton]

There is no contest.

When I was at Mosport this year, one of the many random people I spoke with was trying to tell me an F1 car would be slower around the Mosport track than the LMP1s. He was not at all impressed when I suggested there is no question that the F1 car would be faster.

As Adam says, there is no doubt the F1 car would fall apart a great deal sooner. That, however, is a different issue.

[deggis]

F1 is 10-11 secs faster than 908 on the European tracks where both have raced. Quite safe to say it would be faster on a similar scale at La Sarthe too.

--> http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107206

[the menace]

Thanks for the lap times deggis. That kicks my thoughts into touch then.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Unfortunately not. The lighter and more powerful F1 car would beat the time. It wouldn't last 24 hours, but then that isn't its job.

The early '90s Croup C cars were nearly on the F1 pace. The Pug is quicker than those cars, but current F1 cars are much quicker.

In this months Motorsport there is a small piece about favorite cars, one of the drivers, cant recall who, but they claim the Toyota TS010 was faster than the then current McLaren driven by Senna when times where compared.

I think that all the rule changes in F1 next year, may swing the balance back towards the Sportscars, so if you ask the same question next year, then the answer may be different.

[Stefvh]

Engineers in f1 already say the cars will be as fast as this year.

[zac510]

I wonder how many laps a F1 car could do.. at 80-100l tank size, probably maybe only a lap or two less than a petrol P1?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Nordic

In this months Motorsport there is a small piece about favorite cars, one of the drivers, cant recall who, but they claim the Toyota TS010 was faster than the then current McLaren driven by Senna when times where compared.

Lap times tell different story...

1992 Silverstone
Mansell Williams FW14B - 1'18.965 (pole)
Senna McLaren MP4-7A - 1'21.706 (3rd)
Peugeot 905 - 1:24.421

1992 Monza
Mansell Williams FW14B - 1'22.221 (pole)
Senna McLaren MP4-7A - 1'22.822 (2nd)
Peugeot 905 - 1:26.019

1992 Suzuka
Mansell Williams FW14B - 1'37.360 (pole)
Senna McLaren MP4-7A - 1'38.375 (3rd)
Peugeot 905 - 1:43.957

Hard to find full qualifying results from GrC era, so these are poles from WSC rounds... so if 905 was faster than TS010, there's no way TS010 could have been faster than F1.

[fanfisique]

12Mauro Baldi
Philippe AlliotPeugeot 905 Evo 1 Bis EV16
Peugeot Talbot Sport1:16.415

1Nigel MansellWilliams-Renault FW14BWilliamsG1:13,8640,000100,0002Riccardo PatreseWilliams-Renault FW14BWilliamsG1:14,3320,468100,6343Ayrton SennaMcLaren-Honda MP4/7AMcLarenG1:15,1991,335101,8074Gerhard BergerMcLaren-Honda MP4/7AMcLarenG1:15,3161,452101,9665Michael SchumacherBenetton-Ford B192BenettonG1:15,5691,705102,3086Jean AlesiFerrari F92AFerrariG1:16,1182,254103,0527Martin BrundleBenetton-Ford B192BenettonG1:16,1512,287103,0968Ivan CapelliFerrari F92AFerrariG1:16,4432,579103,4929Thierry BoutsenLigier-Renault JS37LigierG1:16,8062,942103,98310Erik ComasLigier-Renault JS37LigierG1:16,9383,074104,162

At Magny, enough for P8...guess who would have won if...

[FWX]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

At Magny, enough for P8...guess who would have won if...

Thanks for those figures. Granted, it's some way off the ulitmate pace, but I still think it's remarkable that the Peugeot's time would have been good enough for eighth place on the grid there.

[fanfisique]

Originally Posted by FWX

Thanks for those figures. Granted, it's some way off the ulitmate pace, but I still think it's remarkable that the Peugeot's time would have been good enough for eighth place on the grid there.

Yep...but 1992 F1 cars were electronic aids everywhere...and the 905 was PURE.


One of the BIG IF' s:



What IF the 905 evo2 had raced in 1993...against 1993 F1 cars...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

What IF the 905 evo2 had raced in 1993...against 1993 F1 cars...

It would have been difficult ot work out which were uglier?!

The F1 cars didn't get much quicker at Magny Cours. How much quicker was the Evo?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

Yep...but 1992 F1 cars were electronic aids everywhere...and the 905 was PURE.

I thought at least ABS was used quite widely in Group C era. Or was it banned? How about traction control systems and others, were they actually banned by the regs?

905 Evo 2 was as close as F1 car as it gets... F1 engine with the nose. (908, Euskadi ee1 and Acura ARX-02's "F1 noses" looks quite nice compared to that. )

[fanfisique]

Originally Posted by deggis

I thought at least ABS was used quite widely in Group C era. Or was it banned? How about traction control systems and others, were they actually banned by the regs?

905 Evo 2 was as close as F1 car as it gets... F1 engine with the nose. (908, Euskadi ee1 and Acura ARX-02's "F1 noses" looks quite nice compared to that. )

It´s widely accepted that the evo2 905 alond with the Allard were the first F1sque Endurance protos, Peter Elleray admited he took some concepts from the Evo2 to design some of his cars: Bentley Speed and the Euskadi ee1...

The Evo2 was at the free practice at Magny 1992 WSSC 6 round, but the project was abandoned when Series were cacelled for the 1993 season. Thanks to the Ma-FIA landmines..

http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/resu...cc/ms1992.html

That radical design was a toe in the water that had no continuity...as far as the pilots were concerned, I know that Helary said that he loved the car, was much stable cornering bcose it generated much downforce..but had some top speed & overheating problems...equal to lack of development.

The Peugeot F1 Project was DEAD before even starting...all KEY ENGINEERS left Peugeot Sport mid 1993 when the F1 engine wasn´t even a paper: Gilles Simon, Jean Todd, you know that guys isn´t it?...,Peugeot Management did the rest...

That said, 1997 Peugeot F1 engine was arguably the most Powerful and reliable of the grid...: Low rev 15.700rpm...768bhp...great torque engine.


PD: is not coincidence Ferrari`s boost of performance right after Peugeot´s engineers got inside the Maranello babel tower...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

It´s widely accepted that the evo2 905 alond with the Allard were the first F1sque Endurance protos, Peter Elleray admited he took some concepts from the Evo2 to design some of his cars: Bentley Speed and the Euskadi ee1...

Correct me if I am wrong but Peter Elleray did not design the Epsilon-Euskadi ee1. It was designed by another Brit (forgot his name, he later moved to the Ferrari A1GP project). The EE project was taken over by Sergio Rinland.

After the Bentley Elleray designed the Radical and Embassy LMP2 cars.

[fanfisique]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Correct me if I am wrong but Peter Elleray did not design the Epsilon-Euskadi ee1. It was designed by another Brit (forgot his name, he later moved to the Ferrari A1GP project). The EE project was taken over by Sergio Rinland.

After the Bentley Elleray designed the Radical and Embassy LMP2 cars.

Right...the ee1 was designed by John Travis...(Lola F1 1997)...The SR9 and the WF01 were Elleray´s designs from the Bentley´s PostEra...

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Nordic

In this months Motorsport there is a small piece about favorite cars, one of the drivers, cant recall who, but they claim the Toyota TS010 was faster than the then current McLaren driven by Senna when times where compared.

I think that all the rule changes in F1 next year, may swing the balance back towards the Sportscars, so if you ask the same question next year, then the answer may be different.

For the sake of clarity,

the articule is in Octane and not MotorSport, sorry my mistake and the driver quoted was Andy Wallace, he does not say anymore than he did a lap of Monza faster than Senna.

I find it a bit hard to believe and there is no mention of what senna was trying etc nor what year.

[kdr]

curious...what about if they removed the chicanes and let them race down the mulsanne, what would be quicker, an f1 car or the peugeot? just wondering as i saw plenty of both in the flesh last year and the peugeot down the mulsanne seemed visibly quicker than anything i think i've ever seen.

[the menace]

KDR i agree with you.
I've seen plenty of f1 action and f1 is quicker through the bends but the pug this year was quicker in a straight line. The reason that i started this thread is due to the fact that the cars are on full throttle for longer periods at Lemans than at most other tracks and because of this maybe the pug could show the Grand Prix cars a clean set of heals.

[deggis]

On most normal* tracks F1 gains maybe 10-20 km/h faster top speed. As far as I remember from the speed trap tv telemetry.

* so that excludes Le Mans, but I don't see how that would be any different. Without chicanes? Best to call Michel Barge and Stefano Domenicali and ask for the theoretical top speeds of the current cars...

I believe the top speed record for F1 is still 369.9 km/h from Monza 2004. And probably going to remain as a record too.

[fanfisique]

Originally Posted by kdr

curious...what about if they removed the chicanes and let them race down the mulsanne, what would be quicker, an f1 car or the peugeot? just wondering as i saw plenty of both in the flesh last year and the peugeot down the mulsanne seemed visibly quicker than anything i think i've ever seen.

The big difference between straigh line performance between an F1 car and the Peugeot 908 is acceleration.

That said, top speed will be on Pug`s side in 2009, as F1`s aerodynamics is admitedly worst than this years, reducing their top speed with inmediate effect.

The 1200 Nm of torque of the Pug against the 500 or so from the F1`s has a deep impact on acceleration...+ little differences in Horsepower 750 for the 908 and around 800hp for F1 cars (quite optimistic yep)...makes the equation quite favourable to the Peugeot.

I have no doubts that NEXT YEAR...top end speed will be just EQUAL between both machines...and acceleration performance will always be on Pugs side no maker wich aero you´ll suit a F1 car...KERS boost included.



V8 F1 Max. Speed at Monza: 346.8
Pug top speed at Lemans: 339.3

PD: I xpect the 908 HY racing at Lemans, it will be a nice moment to watch out its performance on straight line.

[fanfisique]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

The big difference between straigh line performance between an F1 car and the Peugeot 908 is acceleration.

That said, top speed will be on Pug`s side in 2009, as F1`s aerodynamics is admitedly worst than this years, reducing their top speed with inmediate effect.

The 1200 Nm of torque of the Pug against the 500 or so from the F1`s has a deep impact on acceleration...+ little differences in Horsepower 750 for the 908 and around 800hp for F1 cars (quite optimistic yep)...makes the equation quite favourable to the Peugeot.

I have no doubts that NEXT YEAR...top end speed will be just EQUAL between both machines...and acceleration performance will always be on Pugs side no maker wich aero you´ll suit a F1 car...KERS boost included.



V8 F1 Max. Speed at Monza: 346.8
Pug top speed at Lemans: 339.3

PD: I xpect the 908 HY racing at Lemans, it will be a nice moment to watch out its performance on straight line.

Well...the Pugs Top Speed was from 2007...

Now it says 214,29 mph top speed...344.87 km/h

So figures goes this way:

V8 F1 Max. Speed at Monza: 346.80 km/h
Pug top speed at Lemans: 344.87 km/h

Nothing espectacular, isn´t it?

[JAG]

Current P1's are around the pace of a late 80's, early 90's F1 car.

The pace of top prototype cars was capped when the 3.5l 905 and TS010 arrived, since the aim has been reliability and efficiency, to the point were a current P1 car can run qualifying pace for 24hr's.

F1, in the face of cutting costs and safety, will never be quicker than '05-'08 cars, in fact they'll likely slow.

What you have to realise is both F1 and LMP cars could both be much quicker than the rulemakers allow, that being the case, I personally favour the ACO's 2011 onwards policy of small, efficient engines, and a free hand for alternative technologies.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

Well...the Pugs Top Speed was from 2007...

Now it says 214,29 mph top speed...344.87 km/h

So figures goes this way:

V8 F1 Max. Speed at Monza: 346.80 km/h
Pug top speed at Lemans: 344.87 km/h

Nothing espectacular, isn´t it?

The Nissan Group C car clocked over 230mph in 1990, with the chicanes, thanks to 1100 bhp and qualifying tyres. It clocked 3.27 in qualifying but only 3.35+ during the race.

The 908, with 750bhp and soft race tyres (they didn't use the available qualifying tyres) clocked 3.18, BUT matched that time, in the dark, six hours into the race.