Ferrari F600

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by TWK

Here's a paragraph from my dailysportscar story this past summer:

Corvettes have been built exclusively in Bowling Green since production was moved there from St. Louis, Missouri, in 1981. John Spencer, Program Launch Manager for the C6 and Z06, conducted our plant tour. It’s a fascinating combination of automation and hand-building that takes place as 175 Corvettes – thirty-two of them Z06s – are built in a 9 ½ hour shift. The Corvette doesn’t have unibody, but it’s not on a “frame,” either. Rather two sophisticated hydroformed (high pressure water is used) rails are the base to which carbon fiber panels and other elements are attached to create the car’s structural platform. That’s aluminum for the Z06, and steel for the C6 and C6.R – the aluminum chassis of the Z06 hasn’t been homologated yet, though with production of about 7,000 this year, it could be.

HORNDAWG, I think you need to tell John Spencer that the C6.R is the racing derivative of the Z06.

I know John Spenser personally. and NO the C6R is not the racing derivation of the Z06. It is the OTHER WAY AROUND. The Z06 is the STREET derivative of the C6.r. The C6.r came almost two years before the C6 Z06.

the C5R and C6.r are built by Pratt & Miller in New Hudson MI, not Bowling Green KY where all street Corvettes and 2 seater Caddies are built
http://www.prattmiller.com/c6r.php
.

[HORNDAWG]

HEY!! JOHN SPENCER THE C6R IS A DERIVATIVE OF THE Z06 . THAT FLOAT YOUR BOAT TWK!!! Now if you paid any attention to my first post(#42) on the subject of lineage you would of noticed a qualifier "sort of". In the second of my posts(#45) that in fact I stated the C6R came first and that ZO6 was in the pipeline(not built yet). And in #47 I agreed with the superb explanation of lineage that AU N EGL was so kind to point out. And as a matter of interest the ZO6 is the street version that allows the C6R to use the 7.0 litre engine so in a stretch its all inter-connected!!!

L.P.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

[B]And as a matter of interest the ZO6 is the street version that allows the C6R to use the 7.0 litre engine so in a stretch its all inter-connected!!!

L.P.

It is? Where did you see that?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by TWK

It is? Where did you see that?

I rarely agree with the mighty TWKy, but yes, where did you see that?

[AU N EGL]

I do believe the C5R was using the 7 liter engine from early on, way before the C6Z versions.

the C5-R used the frame rails of the C5, that was it. The C6.r using the steal hydofoam frame rails of the C6 ( not aluminum frame of the ZO6) the torque tune of the C6( not the drive line) and the rear facia of the ZO6. The ACO rules require these minium parts from a road going version of a Corvette. Of a Corvette, not the ZO6 Corvette.

The LS7 engine is not used in the C6.r. a Katech LS7.r engine is. Difference of about $110,000. LS7 eninge = $15,000 LS7.r eninge = $125,000. None of the compoents are the same.

Transmissions are a world apart too. The C5R used the Hewland sequential for many years then switch to the X-trac sequentianl to save weight and be closer to Pratt & Miller. The C6.r uses the x-trac sequential, which is about $100,000 with spare gears each. The Corvette uses a Termic 6-speed ( double H shift pattern) transmission, about $5500

What it comes down to these GT1 cars are not converted road cars, but purpose built race cars.

GT2 cars tend to be ( expect Porsche 996 and 997 RSRs) are road cars converted to race cars.

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I know John Spenser personally. and NO the C6R is not the racing derivation of the Z06. It is the OTHER WAY AROUND. The Z06 is the STREET derivative of the C6.r. The C6.r came almost two years before the C6 Z06

They were launched together at the NAIAS in January of 2005.

[Truckosaurus]

[troll]so does the C6R still have a leaf spring at the back?[/troll]

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Truckosaurus

[troll]so does the C6R still have a leaf spring at the back?[/troll]

Penske 4 way coil over suppension.
Here is a pic of the C5R rear


and the C6.r front


Just above the carbon brake disc you can see the word "Penske"

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

the C5-R used the frame rails of the C5, that was it.

Not quite, I have an article(and I guess I am going to have to see if I can dig it out) that lists all, besides frame, prod. componets in the C5 racer, and it was more than frame.
This was after they were winning, not the first car.

The LS7 engine is not used in the C6.r. a Katech LS7.r engine is. Difference of about $110,000. LS7 eninge = $15,000 LS7.r eninge = $125,000. None of the compoents are the same.

All parts are interchangeble, and as I wrote before, except for the heads, there is nothing that another cannot duplicate fairly easily, but nothing is cheap.

What it comes down to these GT1 cars are not converted road cars, but purpose built race cars.

Not purpose built race cars as such, but too close to said same.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with those who think the top GT class should be changed in in some ways, and it seems Chevy may agree.

I wonder why they bother with homologation, the way things are going.

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by pplater

Had a bit of a hack at a GT version...

Also did one in red bull livery that looks purty hot.

I had a quick go.. on paint, but it looks ok.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

All parts are interchangeble, and as I wrote before, except for the heads, there is nothing that another cannot duplicate fairly easily, but nothing is cheap.

Interchangable ?? Here is comparison put up on the Corvette racing web pages: http://www.corvetteracing.com/cars/c...ne_specs.shtml

notice the boar and stroke differencs.

ZO6s LS7 bore/ stroke 4.125" / 4.10"
C6.rs LS7.r bore / stroke 4.180" / 4.180

throttle system
Z06s LS7 uses a single thottle body
C6Rs LS7.r uses individual runners with 8 thottle bodies.

Pics posted by Katech on another forum
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599110

[chewymonster]

Yes, I have to say that the C6R engine is very different from the regular Z06, as it the rest of the C6R.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Interchangable ?? Here is comparison put up on the Corvette racing web pages: http://www.corvetteracing.com/cars/c...ne_specs.shtml

notice the boar and stroke differencs.

ZO6s LS7 bore/ stroke 4.125" / 4.10"
C6.rs LS7.r bore / stroke 4.180" / 4.180

throttle system
Z06s LS7 uses a single thottle body
C6Rs LS7.r uses individual runners with 8 thottle bodies.

Pics posted by Katech on another forum
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599110

The dimensions you list give displacement of 459 in. cu.
Either way, the bore and stroke can be changed easily, at least realively with new sleeves or different stroke.
Either inj. system can be put on either engine, if one can access the conrolers.
The specifics of the engines may be different, but they are still the same basic arcitecture.
All I am saying , all LS engines use the same basic architecture.
Bob

[HORNDAWG]

Well I've looked everywhere I can think of and can not find the reference. And in fact may be an assumption on my part. It is my rememberance that it dealt with a variance allowed by the ACO on the LS1 engine. In that the LS1 could be run at 427c.i. instead of the stock 365c.i. because it was capable of the larger displacement with factory parts. Also that the LS7R was reverse engineered to produce the LS7 for the C6-Z06 and appease the ACO variance. I know if I have made a mis-step in this process, you will be more than happy to point out the particular offense. On a different note: That link in AU N EGL's post on the Katech is pretty cool. A cool MILLION in LS7R engines layin around.

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

All I am saying , all LS engines use the same basic architecture.
Bob

YES they are. But I think your missing the point. The engine in the C6.r, it may be called a "LS7.r " but it is not an "LSx" engine.

the figures post are straight from GM and Katech the engine builder. I asked them If I could get an engine built with that block? they said NO.

Katech and GM will sell me a slighty used and rebuiilt C5R engine for $85,000. I said that is abit out side my budget.

So Katech will be building me a Katech LS2 block( Not GM LS2) = bore/ stroke 4.125" / 4.10". Ported and polished LS7 heads, and intake.

Should be +/- 600 BHP and +/- 585 TQ based on other engines they have built. Build starts in Jan.

[gwyllion]

Can you please stop poluting this Ferrari GT1 topic with Corvette stuff?

[old man]

OK gwyllion but it is interesting for a mere mortal to see just how far from the real car the racing Corvette is. Now, just to get back to Ferrari, how far was the Prodrive 550 from the road car and would a 600 be totally different from a 550 or 575 for that matter. Given what we now know about the Pratt and Miller racing cars (Can't really call them GM racing cars can you?) perhaps you just need a 600 body shape on a 550!

And then we have the Prodrive Aston, how far off the road car was that?

I seem to recall something on DSC about the matter when the Aston was launched, can Ed or Graham advise?

And here was I thinking that the racing GTs were road car derivatives and the LMPs were prototypes, silly me! Now, what was that C6R - Z06 sequence again?

[AU N EGL]

Care Racing wed site http://www.care-racing.com/

Customer produced racing Ferrari 550's

and ProDrive Motorsports web site:
http://www.prodrive.com/b_motorsport.html

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by old man

Now, what was that C6R - Z06 sequence again?

Corvette C5-R and C6.r history and chassie numbers
http://palmeter.com/

David Palmeter did a great job.

[old man]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Care Racing wed site http://www.care-racing.com/

Customer produced racing Ferrari 550's

and ProDrive Motorsports web site:
http://www.prodrive.com/b_motorsport.html

OK thanks for that, very interesting but nothing like as detailed as the chat here about the Corvette, the Care Racing site really says nothing except the obvious and I still have no idea how much of the car is Ferrari and how much Prodrive.

The Prodrive site is slightly better in that I am told that the Aston chassis is the original bonded aluminium one, that all original panels are replaced, original suspension used but think I should read that as "original type" suspension.

In both cases however the road cars preceded the race cars and so the racers are derived from the road car. As this thread descibes it the current road going Corvette comes AFTER the racer and in my book of English that means the racer is a prototype and not derived from the road car. Or are we saying that over the C5r and C6r the road car from which we started is the old one (whatever that was called?) and so the racing versions have benefitted the road version as the lessons learned have been incorporated

Thinking this through can we take a Care 550 and bolt on carbon fibre 600 panels and call it a 600 racer?

Sorry, I am just a rookie as my sign in says!

[HORNDAWG]

The C6R is homologated off the C-6 steel chasis members making the road version first! Z06 benefitted from the C6R = short version. Approx. the same process(loosely) that the AM/Prodrive machine undergoes and I would suspect every GT-1 car goes through. A lot more secrecy involved in other operations though.

L.P.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

YES they are. But I think your missing the point. The engine in the C6.r, it may be called a "LS7.r " but it is not an "LSx" engine.

the figures post are straight from GM and Katech the engine builder. I asked them If I could get an engine built with that block? they said NO.

Katech and GM will sell me a slighty used and rebuiilt C5R engine for $85,000. I said that is abit out side my budget.

So Katech will be building me a Katech LS2 block( Not GM LS2) = bore/ stroke 4.125" / 4.10". Ported and polished LS7 heads, and intake.

Should be +/- 600 BHP and +/- 585 TQ based on other engines they have built. Build starts in Jan.

THIS is what I would like to know; I know you can take any part of the .r engine and bolt any part of any other LS engine on it and it will work, BUT what is different about the .r block that sets it off?
Does it have a wider bore spacing so a larger over-bore can be obtained with thicker wall?
It is made of a special alloy?
I know the .r is a CHevy unit and not a aftermarket unit with part no. because you told me that earlier, but I would like to know what makes the .r block different of doe Chevy no want people to know so they cannot duplicate it?

The point of putting a 600 bovdy on a 550 is a good one.
Does anyone have place one can find rule changes that are translated in a straighforward manner.
Supoosedly the new rules are more strict and straight up, but if
Chevy is using a Chevy only block, something is fishing in Denmark.
Bob

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

THIS is what I would like to know; I know you can take any part of the .r engine and bolt any part of any other LS engine on it and it will work,

No one can do that. "r' engine parts will not bolt to LSx engine parts.

BUT what is different about the .r block that sets it off?
Does it have a wider bore spacing so a larger over-bore can be obtained with thicker wall?

One of the fetures slighty differnt spacing between cyclinders for added strength plus better oiling and cooling channels, plus the bolt patters are differnt for just about averything. Plus 1/4" longer then LSx blocks.

It is made of a special alloy?

Yes, much harder alloy. and takes much longer to cool to remove impurities in the aluminum.

I know the .r is a CHevy unit and not a aftermarket unit with part no. because you told me that earlier, but I would like to know what makes the .r block different of doe Chevy no want people to know so they cannot duplicate it?

The old C5R block has much longer cylinder sleeves too. Specially made bearings, Bolt patter for the Dry sump pan is differnt they anything on the market. The newer LS7.r ( for the C6R) is even more specalized.

The new Warhawk blocks are closer to the C5R blocks. and Katechs LS2 block ( not Chevy's LS2 block) is closer to the C5R block.

The point of putting a 600 body on a 550 is a good one.
Does anyone have place one can find rule changes that are translated in a straighforward manner.
Supoosedly the new rules are more strict and straight up, but if
Chevy is using a Chevy only block, something is fishing in Denmark.
Bob

Rules straight up and clear?? why would the FIA/ ACO/ French want to do that?? That would make racing prep too easy.

I would not be supprised that the ProDrive Ferrari engines are the same way. Prodrive casts and builds the engines after the Ferrari designs, not Ferrari building the engines. But that is only a BIG GUESS.

[Hammerdown]

This is all fascinating stuff, but Aaaaarrrrrghhhhh! It's all so complicated. I love the GT1 Astons and Corvettes and would really love to see Ferraris, Lambos, Pagani Zondas, Porsches, BMWs, Mercedes, Vipers, Ascaris, Moslers, Saleens, Spykers (and any others I forgot to mention) racing together in the same class - whatever it's called. GT1s are fascinating technically but as you've all been saying they bear only a passing resemblance to their roadgoing counterparts. I'm sure most of us would probably be happy with a more production-based ruleset as long as the cars are fast and make plenty of noise and are spectacular to watch. If you want to limit the power to make the engines cheaper and more durable… fine. It doesn't stop someone from making a car that handles better, is more aerodynamic and more economical. I just want to see some fantastic looking and sounding cars racing closely. Sprints and endurance would both be good.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

whatever it's called. GT1s are fascinating technically but as you've all been saying they bear only a passing resemblance to their roadgoing counterparts.

CORRECT. The GT1 cars only look like the road going versions. Lots of changes and secrcey in building the GT1 cars. And why there are so few of them.

Where as GT2 cars are for the most part, road going cars converted to race cars.

Damn this makes my head spin.