USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Also I got my latest issue of racer in today and it came with a second magazine.the second magazine Is an Imsa special that is almost like a tudor watch catalog.but it's really nicely done, it's just to bad it's all fluff and really hard to read knowing how things have really been going.

[Rcz]

Well Ganassi does have the resources, experience, and driver talent behind. It isn't just BOP. Wouldn't Michael Shank's Ford be up in the front if the Ford's BOP was so strong.

Most of the P2 teams problems are either mechanical or a crew error rather then just BOP I think.

Oak racing could have gotten a podium if they didn't have that problem in pits.

Pickett's team had mechanical problems twice in two races in a row. My guess is that he didn't like the platform he was given anyway and was half hearted about it. In other word, he probably doesn't care for the "cost capped P2 class". In fact, I think he disparaged his P2 car when he compared it to his P1 car, I think he said that, may have misremembered.

Now we will never know how strong Muscle Milk P2 car is now.

So where do you think his going now? Indycar? The GTE class? PWC?

[Holt]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

You don't understand BoP or how cars build their times....and you can't compare times from last year to this year.

And for what it's worth Pescarolo demanded parity and never got it. Last I checked, he's not racing. Financial woes stopped that team dead. Why? No results. Why? No parity. It's simple why teams are bailing.

If you look at Sebring qualifying, Balance of Performance seemed about right. 3 P2s in the top 5. Problem is P2 cars for whatever reason cant keep that pace in the race. P2s need another Balance of Performance break. I'd say give them 25 HP and see what happens. IMSA will make an adjustment before Laguna Seca

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Holt

If you look at Sebring qualifying, Balance of Performance seemed about right. 3 P2s in the top 5. Problem is P2 cars for whatever reason cant keep that pace in the race. P2s need another Balance of Performance break. I'd say give them 25 HP and see what happens. IMSA will make an adjustment before Laguna Seca

It's wrong. The DP's have 10+mph on them. 25hp isn't going to get them close. Plus, the HPD is just about wrung tight on the power they can make while maintaining reliability.

The DP can give up power provided the sanctioning body is interested. They aren't.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Well Ganassi does have the resources, experience, and driver talent behind. It isn't just BOP. Wouldn't Michael Shank's Ford be up in the front if the Ford's BOP was so strong.

Most of the P2 teams problems are either mechanical or a crew error rather then just BOP I think.

Oak racing could have gotten a podium if they didn't have that problem in pits.

Pickett's team had mechanical problems twice in two races in a row. My guess is that he didn't like the platform he was given anyway and was half hearted about it. In other word, he probably doesn't care for the "cost capped P2 class". In fact, I think he disparaged his P2 car when he compared it to his P1 car, I think he said that, may have misremembered.

Now we will never know how strong Muscle Milk P2 car is now.

So where do you think his going now? Indycar? The GTE class? PWC?

Probably nowhere, he's laid off most of his staff according to what I've read. Looks like he's going the way Highcroft went...vaporizing.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

It's wrong. The DP's have 10+mph on them. 25hp isn't going to get them close. Plus, the HPD is just about wrung tight on the power they can make while maintaining reliability.

The DP can give up power provided the sanctioning body is interested. They aren't.

If the P2s get the same top speed as a DP they'll be too fast. Fine, reduce DP power by 25HP, but I have a feeling they want to chip on the balance instead of taking a swing at it, so the DP reduction/P2 increase will probably be closer to 10 or so HP. If IMSA wasnt interested in accommodating P2s they would have never forced all those expensive upgrades on the DP teams. It also doesnt help one P2 team is half a second faster then the others.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Not entirely true. They will run Laguna. If they can contend and win(won't happen because BoP sucks)they will stay. If it doesn't, they will walk.

Anyone who can't understand that the BoP still and always will HEAVILY favor the DP is a right moron.

MMPR stepped away to see what would happen at Long Beach, they had their results and data from Daytona and Sebring...the BoP wasn't adjusted except for the race winning car between Sebring and Long Beach even though it needed to be done.

If nothing happens for Laguna, well, don't be so certain they stay.

I'd agree with you, but don't they have some pretty big contracts (like with their sponsor?) that requires them to race?

Oak is a European team, they could leave and go back to the ELMS or WEC and not lose sleep.

The series better HOPE they don't lose ESM and OAK. Losing all of the competitive (not including the Mazda or DW) P2 teams before the halfway point of the season would be an even greater disaster (it's's already a disaster with losing Dyson, Muscle Milk and Level 5). Having a near to only DP top prototype field would be worse than having no prototypes at all. At this point, I think the stature of the series would be HIGHER if it was GTLM and GTD/GT3 only.

Maybe it would be better to dump all prototypes until the new regs come back and run those two classes only (and get rid of LMPC).

All this re-enforces my thoughts when this whole merger thing came together, that it was REALLY about GTLM. Honestly, I don't think the American car manufacturers care that much about prototypes (even with the Corvette and the Ford). If they did, they'd be racing in the WEC. DP's don't really demonstrate the technical ability of a manufacturer.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Nah dude, the stands were PACKED in every GA race there ever was!

Yes, as in packed up and put away!

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Probably nowhere, he's laid off most of his staff according to what I've read. Looks like he's going the way Highcroft went...vaporizing.

Sad thing is he gave up his LM24 spot for TUSCC. Keeping the drivers but not most of the team implies the next move is pretty far in the future, I'd guess next season, but with those drivers Indycar doesn't seem so likely.

[Maelochs]

Let's not get into the Rolex vs. ALMS stuff too much more please.

Muscle Milk was not as quick as Oak—Oak being in the car they had been developing and adapting to Conti tires and MM trying to develop a brand-new car on tires meant for a different car.

Thing is, everyone knows that it isn't simply that Oak is on Contis or MM was in a new car. It really is that DPs still have about 50 bhp too much. Even the announcers at Fox1 mentioned it at Long Beach. The DPs simply have too much power and torque for the P2s to compete.

The fact that a P2 can almost match a DP in qualifying is not important, because this is a racing, not a qualifying, championship. In traffic, exiting slow corners, on straights, the 150 bhp advantage the DPs have is overwhelming.

Yes, Oak Might have finished on the podium ... but did it have a chance to pass a DP? Not at Long Beach, unless a DP driver messed up. In other words, it really couldn't Compete. It could hold its position, but in racing, passing people is how one wins.

Sure, ESM's second car isn't slow because it's down on power, and Muscle Milk was off the pace because it didn't know the car—but those and other teams have the sense and the experience to understand that under current conditions, P2s simply cannot win at most tracks on the schedule—even the best P2. 150 bhp is just too much of an edge.

TUSC management needs to smarten up, because not only is the majority of the fan base annoyed, the teams are also annoyed. Rolex 2.0 won't fare any better than the original, any more than ALMS 2.0 would. Losing all the ALMS fans and the P2 teams would not be positive for the series—no one looking forward instead of backwards could possibly, reasonably think that losing fans and teams would make TUSC stronger.

That's really the best option, no? Making TUSC stronger? If TUSC crashes, how long might we have to wait until someone who has the raft of money, TV connections, trust of the teams, sales ability to sway sponsors—to set up yet another sports car series after sports car racing has basically not worked out financially for almost two decades?

Does anyone think Fox would have signed on for anyone less than NASCAR? NBCSN is already full of racing and has more coming--no room there. What other TV outlet is interested in racing? And if TUSC flops, what TV exec would dare approach the board with a proposal to cover its replacement series—the product is a proven failure.

Besides which, most teams would probably look at other options first, before jumping back in with a sports car series which was even less capitalized and less potent than a NASCAR-backed series.

What might succeed as a successor would be a BES-type series—but A.) I like prototypes and B.) with new GT regs coming, it would be dangerous to try to start such a series until the regs were published—who trusts the FIA to get it right the first time?

Seems to me our best bet is a properly functioning TUSC, and for TUSC to stay healthy until the new regs are published in 2016, DPs and P2s need to be able to compete on a level playing field.

I am sure some folks would be happy if DPs lost 300 hp, but I think most of us are fine with whoever wins so long as the racing is good—which means both types of cars in the top class need to have the same chance at winning.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Let's not get into the Rolex vs. ALMS stuff too much more please.

Muscle Milk was not as quick as Oak—Oak being in the car they had been developing and adapting to Conti tires and MM trying to develop a brand-new car on tires meant for a different car.

Thing is, everyone knows that it isn't simply that Oak is on Contis or MM was in a new car. It really is that DPs still have about 50 bhp too much. Even the announcers at Fox1 mentioned it at Long Beach. The DPs simply have too much power and torque for the P2s to compete.

The fact that a P2 can almost match a DP in qualifying is not important, because this is a racing, not a qualifying, championship. In traffic, exiting slow corners, on straights, the 150 bhp advantage the DPs have is overwhelming.

Yes, Oak Might have finished on the podium ... but did it have a chance to pass a DP? Not at Long Beach, unless a DP driver messed up. In other words, it really couldn't Compete. It could hold its position, but in racing, passing people is how one wins.

Sure, ESM's second car isn't slow because it's down on power, and Muscle Milk was off the pace because it didn't know the car—but those and other teams have the sense and the experience to understand that under current conditions, P2s simply cannot win at most tracks on the schedule—even the best P2. 150 bhp is just too much of an edge.

TUSC management needs to smarten up, because not only is the majority of the fan base annoyed, the teams are also annoyed. Rolex 2.0 won't fare any better than the original, any more than ALMS 2.0 would. Losing all the ALMS fans and the P2 teams would not be positive for the series—no one looking forward instead of backwards could possibly, reasonably think that losing fans and teams would make TUSC stronger.

That's really the best option, no? Making TUSC stronger? If TUSC crashes, how long might we have to wait until someone who has the raft of money, TV connections, trust of the teams, sales ability to sway sponsors—to set up yet another sports car series after sports car racing has basically not worked out financially for almost two decades?

Does anyone think Fox would have signed on for anyone less than NASCAR? NBCSN is already full of racing and has more coming--no room there. What other TV outlet is interested in racing? And if TUSC flops, what TV exec would dare approach the board with a proposal to cover its replacement series—the product is a proven failure.

Besides which, most teams would probably look at other options first, before jumping back in with a sports car series which was even less capitalized and less potent than a NASCAR-backed series.

What might succeed as a successor would be a BES-type series—but A.) I like prototypes and B.) with new GT regs coming, it would be dangerous to try to start such a series until the regs were published—who trusts the FIA to get it right the first time?

Seems to me our best bet is a properly functioning TUSC, and for TUSC to stay healthy until the new regs are published in 2016, DPs and P2s need to be able to compete on a level playing field.

I am sure some folks would be happy if DPs lost 300 hp, but I think most of us are fine with whoever wins so long as the racing is good—which means both types of cars in the top class need to have the same chance at winning.

I agree with you for the most part, but it's not just about the racing. If close racing was all that people cared about then spec'ing everything in prototypes would be the way to go.

In prototypes its also about the cars. The sexy sleek lines, the technological edge. People came to Sebring and other races to see the Audi, even though they were dominating every race. Now I KNOW P1 is not viable in the states, but it's hard to believe the current crop of DP and P2 are either.

[belt driven]

Daytona Fastest Lap was 2.15 sec faster this year than 2013 (DP). Sebring was .64 sec. faster (P2). Long Beach was .51 (DP) and .31 (P2) faster. The top 7 cars were inside .676 sec with fastest P2 only .204 off fastest DP. This 1 second whining is a load of BS.

We’re done with the historic high speed roval, the historic rough recycled airfield, and the historic tight Stupid Street course. Finally we get a race on an organic terrain, purpose built, genuine ROAD COURSE!

Last year’s fastest P2 lap at Laguna Seca was 3.75 seconds faster than last year’s DP. Let’s see a real road race before we mess with the BoP again.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

...but I think most of us are fine with whoever wins so long as the racing is good—which means both types of cars in the top class need to have the same chance at winning.

For those of us who are into the advanced technology and the efforts of the world's leading manufacturers to make their cars more efficient while still powerful and then move what they learn into their production cars is very important. The WEC continues that very important trend and the TUSCC seems to have let that goal slip to the side.

If you want to let the DP's have 150 more HP, then give them a smaller fuel tank. The power is still there but you have to learn to use it wisely and sparingly. Instead, the DP's were given a huge increase in power and all the fuel they wanted. This is an almost complete turnaround from the way the ALMS was focused and the WEC is now focused.

I think this year's WEC is going to be the most interesting in history as the world's leading manufacturers go at it. I can't wait to see how the hybrid technologies are going to play out. Since Audi took a step backwards and is now relying more upon their diesel ICE than their hybrid capability, I hope Toyota and Porsche show them how it's done integrating the hybrid technologies.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

For those of us who are into the advanced technology and the efforts of the world's leading manufacturers to make their cars more efficient while still powerful and then move what they learn into their production cars is very important. The WEC continues that very important trend and the TUSCC seems to have let that goal slip to the side.

If you want to let the DP's have 150 more HP, then give them a smaller fuel tank. The power is still there but you have to learn to use it wisely and sparingly. Instead, the DP's were given a huge increase in power and all the fuel they wanted. This is an almost complete turnaround from the way the ALMS was focused and the WEC is now focused.

I think this year's WEC is going to be the most interesting in history as the world's leading manufacturers go at it. I can't wait to see how the hybrid technologies are going to play out. Since Audi took a step backwards and is now relying more upon their diesel ICE than their hybrid capability, I hope Toyota and Porsche show them how it's done integrating the hybrid technologies.

The other thing, is that for all the complaining about the France family taking over IMSA again, the REAL culprit for the demise of top level prototype racing in regards to ACO specs is the WEC.

The WEC sucked the life out of the ALMS in regards to P1. Before the WEC was around the ALMS was the defacto top series in regards to P1 (except Lemans) in regards to where the manufacturers wanted to be.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Danathar

The WEC sucked the life out of the ALMS in regards to P1. Before the WEC was around the ALMS was the defacto top series in regards to P1 (except Lemans) in regards to where the manufacturers wanted to be.

Yes and No... the ALMS management sucked the life of their own series, causing Audi to push for a WEC, which kicked the already falling down ALMS.

[chernaudi]

Panoz stopped bankrolling/lost interest in owning the ALMS by himself after one of his cars won GT2 (now GTE Pro) at LM in '06. He relied too much on OEMs, and Audi and Porsche got tired of bankrolling Don's series and scaled back.

That heightened Audi's push for a World Championship series (something that Audi started to promote after they won LM in 2000), and they got their wish in 2012.

Unless IMSA can convince Audi, Porsche, Toyota and/or Rebellion to run the endurance races sometime, the big factories are done with IMSA's prototype class.

[Maelochs]

Everything changes in 2017. I don't see Audi, Toyota, Porsche leaving WEC for TUSC and I don't see TUSC admitting P1, so likely TUSC will become a P2 series in 2017, with hopefully more manufacturers building engines or bankrolling and badging cars (like the various P2 manufacturer motors or the Mazda diesel.)

Ford and Chevy can get their publicity by building motors without having to get involved in chassis development, and they aren't likely to leave the series. Whether other manufacturers want to be series partners (investors) depends a lot on what TUSC does between now and then. Honda could set up a team, Nissan could ... but not if they don't think the RoI is there, and a lot of that will depend on whether TUSC can keep the fans and teams interested for another couple seasons.

TUSC made big strides forward in officiating at Long Beach---and unfortunately huge strides backwards in broadcasting, and still didn't balance P2 and DP. If the series can make similarly serious improvements for Laguna, I'd give it a decent chance to survive until the new formula is promulgated.

If not ... who knows?

[LagunaSnaka]

With all due respect to the optimists...2017 is too far out. ALMS fans...i.e. fans of ACO spec racing endured a long slow decline from the 2008 peak. MMPR leaving and Dyson going elsewhere are extremely bad signals for the series. Things are heading toward Grand-Am 2.0. and nobody went to the Grand-Am 1.0 races. I agree that Laguna will be a good test. The attendance should be very revealing.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by LagunaSnaka

With all due respect to the optimists...2017 is too far out. ALMS fans...i.e. fans of ACO spec racing endured a long slow decline from the 2008 peak. MMPR leaving and Dyson going elsewhere are extremely bad signals for the series. Things are heading toward Grand-Am 2.0. and nobody went to the Grand-Am 1.0 races. I agree that Laguna will be a good test. The attendance should be very revealing.

Don't forget we are going to see the debut of the new Ligier P2 in TUSC later this year with 8Star. So yes teams have left, but they can always come back and new teams can enter as well.

The series needs to clean up its act on the officiating and BOP front. But I think that will happen BOP wise after Laguna if issues arise. I'm interested to see how officiating goes at Laguna. Long Beach was easy, but in the PC and GTD race I think the race officials will be challenged to make the right calls regarding cautions and safety cars. Who knows maybe they can actually learn something from WEC's implementation of "code 80" this year as well.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by belt driven

Daytona Fastest Lap was 2.15 sec faster this year than 2013 (DP). Sebring was .64 sec. faster (P2). Long Beach was .51 (DP) and .31 (P2) faster. The top 7 cars were inside .676 sec with fastest P2 only .204 off fastest DP. This 1 second whining is a load of BS.

We’re done with the historic high speed roval, the historic rough recycled airfield, and the historic tight Stupid Street course. Finally we get a race on an organic terrain, purpose built, genuine ROAD COURSE!

Last year’s fastest P2 lap at Laguna Seca was 3.75 seconds faster than last year’s DP. Let’s see a real road race before we mess with the BoP again.

Which is why TUSC is taking their time with balancing the performance. They need to start by shaving 15-20 HP from the DPs and see what happens.

Originally Posted by LagunaSnaka

With all due respect to the optimists...2017 is too far out. ALMS fans...i.e. fans of ACO spec racing endured a long slow decline from the 2008 peak. MMPR leaving and Dyson going elsewhere are extremely bad signals for the series. Things are heading toward Grand-Am 2.0. and nobody went to the Grand-Am 1.0 races. I agree that Laguna will be a good test. The attendance should be very revealing.

Indycar survived without Champcar fans, TUSC will survive without ALMS fans. It has all the big events and NASCAR money and TV.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Holt

TUSC will survive without ALMS fans. It has all the big events and NASCAR money and TV.

Grand Am had big events, NASCAR money, and TV..... and no real fanbase.

There is no reason to believe Grand Am 2.0 will be any different, as nothing much has changed.

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by joeb

Don't forget we are going to see the debut of the new Ligier P2 in TUSC later this year with 8Star. So yes teams have left, but they can always come back and new teams can enter as well.

The series needs to clean up its act on the officiating and BOP front. But I think that will happen BOP wise after Laguna if issues arise. I'm interested to see how officiating goes at Laguna. Long Beach was easy, but in the PC and GTD race I think the race officials will be challenged to make the right calls regarding cautions and safety cars. Who knows maybe they can actually learn something from WEC's implementation of "code 80" this year as well.

The Laguna race (particuarly the blue race) will be good practice for the officials because lots of folks like me will just be watching the red race only. Watkins glen will be the first true test of how the officiating and organization has improved since the Daytona/Sebring debacles.

Also taking some horsepower from the DP cars is the last thing that needs to be done. Nothing else. Keep it simple IMSA. Although I hope that GTLM will still be brought back to their weight and fuel capacity levels that they had at Daytona.

[Rcz]

I hate BOPing cars down, especial prototypes.

Just BOP the P2s up.

[joeb]

8 Star is considering a PWC campaign. The most interesting quote of the article is when Enzo says:

“We have a big team and need to look at other areas of racing in the U.S. as an alternative so we don’t have all of our investment in the TUDOR Championship. We can’t depend on only one series,”

Does this suggest a lack of trust with the series management or am I reading too much into it?

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by joeb

8 Star is considering a PWC campaign. The most interesting quote of the article is when Enzo says:



Does this suggest a lack of trust with the series management or am I reading too much into it?

I think Enzo sees PWC GT3 as a step up from running LMPC. Which he is right. LMPC is a dying category.