USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Holt]

See I didnt get to watch pay-per-view WEC. I had to listen to it with RLM and follow timing. I'll take commercials over pay-per-view thank you. Thats 2 of the last 4 WEC races that ended under a red flag and thats if you even count the Fuji debacle as a race. And of course nobody cared this race ended 45 minutes early because there wasnt a single worthwhile position battle that was within a lap.

BoP? Rebellion running 6 seconds a lap off the P1 pace is splendid BoP. Surely Rebellion had a shot to win if they executed a perfect race. Surely the DP power advantage over P2 is worse then Rebellion racing against a 1,000 HP Toyota.

The WEC is that flashy, 'pretty' blonde that everyone wants to be seen with. Its the 80/20 rule - WEC has the 20%, a handful of flashy cars - TUSC has the 80%, great racing and teams in all 4 classes. For many that 20% is more attractive then the 80%. Such is life, but Im keenly aware of it.

[joeb]

Holt, I don't take issue with much you just wrote but the rebellion comment is off base. They ran last year's cars that were off pace in 2013 and simply can't compete with updated 2014 factory cars. Also, tusc is in no position to look down at how wec races end after sebring and Daytona.

Finally, why is this a competition between WEC and TUSC? They are different products with different purposes. I personally enjoy them both. If you don't that's fine, we can at least agree that not every race in any series is a classic.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Holt

This is what I've noticed after Silverstone, many people have led themselves to believe the WEC's poop doesnt stink. That thoroughly below average race they put on today was completely forgetable. Give me TUSC or give me death

I think it's more the other way around... a lot of people went into the TUSC-season with the preconceived notion that it's going to be rubbish and rubbish only and are therefore only seeing the rubbish when in reality it really is a mixed bag of good, average and - for right now too much - bad.

The WEC race today was alright, but really nothing special, the best racing of the day definitely happened up in Donnington yesterday.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Holt

See I didnt get to watch pay-per-view WEC. I had to listen to it with RLM and follow timing. I'll take commercials over pay-per-view thank you. Thats 2 of the last 4 WEC races that ended under a red flag and thats if you even count the Fuji debacle as a race. And of course nobody cared this race ended 45 minutes early because there wasnt a single worthwhile position battle that was within a lap.

So you chose not to watch the free streams linked to on the forums? I watched the whole race for free with only a few hiccups in the stream. You cant blame races ending under red flags on the wec. Seriously, come on. Especially since no one can control the weather. Btw it was 25 minutes early the race ended, not 45 minutes. Positions were still being contested in GTE as well with possible pit stops deciding the running.

BoP? Rebellion running 6 seconds a lap off the P1 pace is splendid BoP. Surely Rebellion had a shot to win if they executed a perfect race. Surely the DP power advantage over P2 is worse then Rebellion racing against a 1,000 HP Toyota.

A 2013 privateer car vs full factory cars. The gap was more like 2-3 seconds per lap, but 6 sounds better so lets forget facts.

The WEC is that flashy, 'pretty' blonde that everyone wants to be seen with. Its the 80/20 rule - WEC has the 20%, a handful of flashy cars - TUSC has the 80%, great racing and teams in all 4 classes. For many that 20% is more attractive then the 80%. Such is life, but Im keenly aware of it.

Quantity is not always greater than Quality. Theres no reason for a "vs." discussion. But no reason to brag how Tusc is so much better either.

[Mystery]

I thought I came into the wrong thread for a minute.

[Maelochs]

It's time to be thinking ahead to Laguna Seca. Silverstone is over and so is Long Beach.

I have no insider info, but i'd bet that Laguna Seca is a really important race for TUSC for both team- and fan retention.

For fans, if TUSC can officiate like they did at Long Beach and also manage to show the race on TV, a lot of on-the-fence fans might slip down on the TUSC side and down the slippery slope to regularly watching the series, however unwillingly.

Sort of, "Laguna wasn't That bad, I'll see how Belle Isle goes ..." over and over through the rest of the schedule.

For teams ... Teams want to see happy fans (or their sponsors want to see fans) but at least for the top class, P2 teams want to see parity.

I fear TUSC management is thinking, "Laguna is a P2 track, so there is no need to make another adjustment. P2s should do well there."

Which might be right--or, because there will still be traffic and restarts DPs will still have an advantage because they have 150 more bhp.

How many teams will be disgusted if DPs dominate at Laguna? More to the point, how will Ed Brown feel if DPs dominate Laguna?

I'd wager three-quarters of the fan base will be pretty pi$$ed off if the podium at Laguna is all DPs. But the real issue is will one sponsor--Patron--also be pi$$ed off, and how pi$$ed off?

I will be watching just to see if TUSC can possibly find a new way to hurt itself, or will use one of the tried-and-true methods form the first three races. or ... will they finally get ti right?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Holt

This is what I've noticed after Silverstone, many people have led themselves to believe the WEC's poop doesnt stink. That thoroughly below average race they put on today was completely forgetable. Give me TUSC or give me death

Of course it stinks , and it always will because they cant please 100% of the people 100% of the time ..... obviously you think that's possible in your world ?

Below average race ..... your havin a laugh . You got your lets adjust the race by throwing out a pace car attitude and Oh Im sorry I mistook the wrong car and effected the outcome of a race because of some ****ing toszer that does not have a clue .

Mistaking a GTC/GTE Porsche for each other ..... plus different livery is a very amateur mistake . SO amateur that nothing but a very massive apology should be blasted out , and said person who did this should be hauled around the track on his arse by the snatch tractor .

Teams dropping outta TUDOR left right and centre ..... oh gooooody , real success is it ???

Hope u got a nice big blanket ..... cuz if TUDOR don't get their **** together , there wont be any teams wanting to race in a **** up of a championship buddy .

[Maelochs]

"Give me TUSC or give me death"

One might wend up equaling the other if they can't make Laguna work.

[Scooter185]

while listening to RLM, they were talking about moving a car from the track and how in the WEC they do their best to not need the FCY. I wouldn't care if toyota won by 10 laps, letting them race instead of trying to build drama with the yellow makes WEC more appealing to me.

[belt driven]

Good stream allowed me to watch part of a great race. Red flagging it early made it only a good race.

Red flags should be for fire, multiple cars off course, track blocked/littered with debris, or visibility < 100-150 yds. I've watched SCCA, IMSA, and Grand Am races run flag to flag in rain. Behind all the safety cells, HANS devices, fire supression systems, and nomex underwear there is supposed to be a RACE DRIVER. If it's too wet for you, slow down or park it. How many of you knew Niki Lauda would have had 4 GP championships except for making that decision?

2 past bad examples of creative/pantywaist flagging were 2007 LeMans and the 2009 Petitissimo LeMans.

[Maelochs]

I also saw a Rolex race red-flagged for rain at Homestead in ... 2012? At some point it becomes ridiculous to try to race--either the cars have to tiptoe and do not dare pass, or they wreck while going straight because there is no traction. What's the point?

I know that TV can make a scene about three times as bright as it actually is (having later watched races I had attended.) So many people have said it was pretty much undrivable ... but some people simply think differently, which is fine.

I don't think that my day would have been enriched by a few more laps at sub-yellow-flag speed and several more wrecks and resulting yellow flags.

I will admit that I think red flags today are sometimes used when cars could drive (though perhaps not race) but the issue is, how many pointless wrecks, how much precious sponsor money, and what risk to drivers for what sort of entertainment?

Well, that's what I think.

How many people who were trackside wished for more racing? (Well, I know I did at Homestead, but I was so wet and cold I couldn't have gotten wetter or colder. Still ... the cars couldn't race, they could only circulate.)

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I will admit that I think red flags today are sometimes used when cars could drive (though perhaps not race) but the issue is, how many pointless wrecks, how much precious sponsor money, and what risk to drivers for what sort of entertainment?

Not just risk to drivers, risk to marshals too. I know it's a F1 race example, but anyway: let's not forget the Japanese GP in '94, torrential downpour, Gianni Morbidelli aquaplaned off, marshals and recovery crews were on the scene right away to get the car out of the way, Martin Brundle aquaplaned on the same puddle and busted a marshal's leg to pieces.

[MoMedic9019]

I think we need to move past the discussion of what was NORMAL in 1975, instead of what is SAFE and ACCEPTABLE in 2014.

There was a significant amount of standing water at Fuji last year, and the rain at Silverstone yesterday got the point that it was no longer acceptable to restart. The red was thrown because cars on full wets couldn't even catch the safety car.

Before this goes any further off topic.

If you wouldn't feel safe in a street car at 60mph in heavy rain for fear of hydroplaning, do you think that it's any safer in a race car?

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by belt driven

Good stream allowed me to watch part of a great race. Red flagging it early made it only a good race.

Red flags should be for fire, multiple cars off course, track blocked/littered with debris, or visibility < 100-150 yds. I've watched SCCA, IMSA, and Grand Am races run flag to flag in rain. Behind all the safety cells, HANS devices, fire supression systems, and nomex underwear there is supposed to be a RACE DRIVER. If it's too wet for you, slow down or park it. How many of you knew Niki Lauda would have had 4 GP championships except for making that decision?

2 past bad examples of creative/pantywaist flagging were 2007 LeMans and the 2009 Petitissimo LeMans.

This post could only have come from someone who wasn't there.

There was standing water on the racing line at Silverstone. We would have had cars going off in a straight line - that's just not acceptable. I live near Silverstone and I've never seen standing water like that on the dual carriageway before, and it's a route I've done thousands of times.

You simply can not drive a modern LMP car in those conditions, and that's case closed as far as I'm concerned. No debate in it at all. There's a discussion to be had in whether modern racing cars should be made by the rules to cope with those conditions, but on the day the red flag was the only decision to make.

We've had a lot of discussion on race directors in this thread but I don't even think it's worth praising Eduardo Freitas for making what was an incredibly obvious decision that anyone else at Silverstone would have made.

[Mike Hedlund]

The rules in all professional (and club) level racing is the same for halting races because of environmental conditions. You MUST be able to see the next flag station at any point on the circuit. If you can't, they red flag the race. Either due to rain, smoke, fog, whatever.

It isn't because the teams don't want to drive around in the wet.

-mike

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by belt driven

2 past bad examples of creative/pantywaist flagging ... the 2009 Petitissimo LeMans.

I'm guessing you weren't there to make such a ridiculous statement.

[belt driven]

From official English-language LeMans24 2007 reports:

-14:12 hrs. "The safety cars were deployed at the request of several of the team managers. They felt that conditions were not safe for racing. In addition to heavy rain, there is standing water and visible rivers on the racing surface.

Before the safety car period began, the fastest cars on track included Peugeot No.8 and Corvette No.63 - the two cars with the most to gain by aggressive racing."

-14h16 Hrs. "Hugh Chamberlain, Team Manager of Chamberlain Synergy has informed the media that a number of Team Managers requested that the safety cars be deployed. This request was initially denied. According to Chamberlain, several Team Managers then approached the Race Director in a group with a strong posture, and the safety cars were immediately deployed."

-14:23 hrs. "One team that certainly won’t have welcomed the deployment of the safety cars was the No.63 Corvette Racing Corvette C6.R. They are running 2nd in LM GT1 and they had been catching the class leading No.009 Aston Martin Racing DBR9. The gap had closed down to a lap and the Corvette was often 20 secs a lap quicker than the Aston Martin."

-14:48 hrs. "The Safety Cars have left the circuit and the green flag is in the air. Rain still falls heavily in places, and all cars are proceeding carefully (italics mine)."

Safety? Or politics?

-----

I currently live 2.66 miles from Road Atlanta. An online Weather Underground station 1.02 miles from the track shows rainfall readings almost identical to my own observations. Station archives give some interesting numbers.

The 2007 Petitissimo LeMans was started and ran the first 35 minutes under drizzle (<.01”/hr). After 35 minutes no measurable rain fell until 4:35 into the race. Under yellow from then until red-flagged at 4:48, a peak rate (measured over 5 min) of .18”/hr fell. Total rainfall from 4:35 to 8:44 (race called) was
1.01"/2.57cm.

And yes, Fogel, I was there.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by belt driven

And yes, Fogel, I was there.

So you saw the 4-5" or standing water on the front straight at times, and other parts of the track, and the extensive mud and debris on sections of the track, and still you wonder why it was red flagged?

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

So you saw the 4-5" or standing water on the front straight at times, and other parts of the track, and the extensive mud and debris on sections of the track, and still you wonder why it was red flagged?

1" of rain can be incredibly significant.

Road Atlanta 2007--would have been 18 million gallons. JUST on their property.

Metro Atlanta--2.29 BILLION gallons of water.

Sorry man, it's all safety.

[canciaro]

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/te...uture-in-tusc/



Im done with TUSCC for this season, not really gonna care or watch its a total DP pony show. Europeans, be glad you can watch proper racing cars go at it, even though I dont understand why the WEC always has a poor amount of fans in attendance.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by canciaro

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/te...uture-in-tusc/



Im done with TUSCC for this season, not really gonna care or watch its a total DP pony show. Europeans, be glad you can watch proper racing cars go at it, even though I dont understand why the WEC always has a poor amount of fans in attendance.

IMSA knows. I would expect them to be slogging away at it. The rope is getting thin, and if they all leave, it's likely game over.

[Holt]

My newest idea for BoP (partly based on Scott Sharp's reasoning) is to give the P2s 40kgs of ballast and 10 more HP. Then take about 30HP from the DPs.

Hopefully then the straightline performance is closer while while retaining the overall laptime equivalence.

[Christian Mogami]

Originally Posted by Holt

My newest idea for BoP (partly based on Scott Sharp's reasoning) is to give the P2s 40kgs of ballast and 10 more HP. Then take about 30HP from the DPs.

Hopefully then the straightline performance is closer while while retaining the overall laptime equivalence.

That is a stupid idea!

The P2 is already overweight!

The BOP has to be to the DP because the P2 is already max out for reliable horsepower from their production base engines(running bigger air restrictor and boost over their ACO/FIA cousins)

They have to lower the the top speed of the DP by either taking away hp or adding aero drag.

[TF110]

They should just let dp's win so they can go back to being just a dp class. Have the P2 teams go test their luck in elms or wec. I feel only then will they wake up. Imo, its not going to change, guys. I won't be surprised if DP's win every race. Then what will happen next year? How long until DP's are gone? 2016? 2017? Im on the fence of the prototype class having any P2's next year. Not even Mazda will want to stay

[Christian Mogami]

Somebody brought up tire warmers for the P2 to solve getting the heat into the tires.At LB,it took from 4-5 laps for the P2 to get heat into their tires.

or asking the tire manufacture to make two sets of tires,one for the DP and one for the P2.