Driver Weight Parity - Time to Introduce

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

It could account for the performance difference between Webber and Vettel.

No, because there was no problem to get down to the weight limit, both their cars including themselves weighed the same. Vettel still has an advantage, but it isn't the weight penalty it is the location of the weight (mass).

It is more of an issue this year compared to last because some are struggling to get to the weight limit.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mystery

I don't know about this. It does feel unfair to have the flyweights having an advantage, but is that not just their good fortune.

And what if you followed an example of parity in other sports. Basketball players wearing platform shoes of various sizes. Life jackets or outboard motors for the less buoyant swimmers. Horse racing would be rather different.

Maybe it should not be as pronounced as it is, but I'm not sure there's a lot that should be done about it at the pinnacle of the sport.

sports are about a competition between people, not their equipment. Good equipment has an advantage over bad equipment. When a sport has equipment as a mitigating factor in the competition, its important to have the participants on a level playing ground if the competition is to maintain a sense of fair play between the competitors.

In the past the ability to have all the cars underweight meant it was not a major factor because no one was disadvantaged outwardly (although being lighter meant the teams could shift ballast around to get some advantage).

Indycar mandated a driver and seat minimum weight to stop the 'unfair advantage' gained by someone like Danica Patrick, who is tiny. The weight to make the minimum driver seat weight has to be with seat.

Physical sports have advantages for people with the 'right build' build although many team sports have roles that cater for a variety of weight, size and build.

F1 isn't about size and weight so it shouldn't be a major factor in the competition, but under the new formula it has become one. That can be easily resolved

[paddy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

sports are about a competition between people, not their equipment. Good equipment has an advantage over bad equipment. When a sport has equipment as a mitigating factor in the competition, its important to have the participants on a level playing ground if the competition is to maintain a sense of fair play between the competitors.

In the past the ability to have all the cars underweight meant it was not a major factor because no one was disadvantaged outwardly (although being lighter meant the teams could shift ballast around to get some advantage).

Indycar mandated a driver and seat minimum weight to stop the 'unfair advantage' gained by someone like Danica Patrick, who is tiny. The weight to make the minimum driver seat weight has to be with seat.

Physical sports have advantages for people with the 'right build' build although many team sports have roles that cater for a variety of weight, size and build.

F1 isn't about size and weight so it shouldn't be a major factor in the competition, but under the new formula it has become one. That can be easily resolved

I agree with this. It's pretty much what I posted earlier. In other sports body size and shape is a trade off between power, strength, speed, flexibility, etc. In F1 at the moment there is no trade off so light driver equals faster even if a heavier driver is the better pilot. That is not right. Sort it out FIA.

[chillibowl]

im still undecided on this but i feel that any limitation set would still be setting an arbitrary line and still risk leaving some drivers out. i also dont necessarily like the notion of the rules deciding which attributes are good and which ones should be leveled out.

size and weight may not be directly relevant but those attributes have bearing on strength and condition. most drivers struggle to develop strength without creating bulk which is a struggle for athletes across many other sports.

i feel like imposing any limits (or maximums) blurs the line of drivers being considered athletes.

going off on a bit of a tangent, leveling things out for the larger male drivers could very well eliminate an advantage that a female driver could benefit from.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

im still undecided on this but i feel that any limitation set would still be setting an arbitrary line and still risk leaving some drivers out. i also dont necessarily like the notion of the rules deciding which attributes are good and which ones should be leveled out.

size and weight may not be directly relevant but those attributes have bearing on strength and condition. most drivers struggle to develop strength without creating bulk which is a struggle for athletes across many other sports.

i feel like imposing any limits (or maximums) blurs the line of drivers being considered athletes.

going off on a bit of a tangent, leveling things out for the larger male drivers could very well eliminate an advantage that a female driver could benefit from.

I don't understand what you mean.
All we are saying is that the rules allow for a driver + seat weight that would eliminate the current situation that imposes a handicap on drivers who are taller and consequently heavier. You aren't handicapping anyone.

As far as female drivers are concerned they are not all small. Danica is a flyweight 50-55kg but Simona is 150lbs....

Driver weight is included in the overall weight of the car but larger drivers all add weight to the rule weight because the increase under Hybrid rules has not fully compensated for. This discriminates against larger drivers over the old rule because the limit was high enough to include all but the heaviest. Smaller guys also had to be ballasted but the ballast was placed to help the cars balance.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

As far as female drivers are concerned they are not all small. Danica is a flyweight 50-55kg but Simona is 150lbs....

Danica weighs 45 kg I believe.

Someone should test her quickly before the rules change!

She's only about 30 kg lighter than Hulk and Sutil!

[Armco Bender]

Time to stop calling them drivers and start calling them jockeys.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

Danica weighs 45 kg I believe.

Someone should test her quickly before the rules change!

She's only about 30 kg lighter than Hulk and Sutil!

I was just guessing but found out that when Danica got pole at Daytona a couple of years ago she weighed in at 110 lbs or converted that's 50kg and 3.69grams....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I was just guessing but found out that when Danica got pole at Daytona a couple of years ago she weighed in at 110 lbs or converted that's 50kg and 3.69grams....

Thanks T.

I found this too, hilarious that the old boys union arcs up as soon as a girl starts getting too close for comfort.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup...us-driver-seat

At least the problem was addressed though!

[chillibowl]

i guess this is the part i have a hard time understanding.

taking away the advantage the lighter driver enjoys is imo replacing one handicap on one group by handicapping another.

i understand that you guys are just coming at this from a perspective of making things a more fair a more equal test of driving ability but for me its just counter intuitive to try and even out physiological differences in sporting competitions.

anyways moving the discussion along, what are the rules for feeder and junior series, karting etc? surly to make this change effective and ensure that the best drivers make it into F1 then the rule should be uniform all the way through the ranks. perhaps it is i dont know, but if it then isnt sort of too late in the game to worry about it in F1?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i guess this is the part i have a hard time understanding.

taking away the advantage the lighter driver enjoys is imo replacing one handicap on one group by handicapping another.

i understand that you guys are just coming at this from a perspective of making things a more fair a more equal test of driving ability but for me its just counter intuitive to try and even out physiological differences in sporting competitions.

anyways moving the discussion along, what are the rules for feeder and junior series, karting etc? surly to make this change effective and ensure that the best drivers make it into F1 then the rule should be uniform all the way through the ranks. perhaps it is i dont know, but if it then isnt sort of too late in the game to worry about it in F1?

Karting weight is kart and driver, usually set in juniors at a level that embraces most average kids although at adolescent levels big kids struggle and small kids and girls add weight / ballast.

But the issue isn't what happens in the junior grades. In the early days of F1 it was only the car in a dry state (no fuel) for everyone.
Then they changed it as competition became closer and it was realised that it was easier to include the driver.
Now we are going from a state where the cars were easily under the limit so everyone got in but the biggest, to one where several of our current drivers are being handicapped.

In truth none of our F1 drivers are 'big' people but even the medium sized drivers are struggling to stay low enough in weight and now several are being pressed to lose weight to stay close to the limit. 30 or 40 years ago races were not won or lost on the fraction of a second but we now time to a 1/1000th of a second and it does make a difference. We can measure it and deal with it.
Secondly, if F1 is the realm of all but jockey sized drivers then it will eventually become irrelevant to the majority of the population.
Sport is a popular entertainment when people have an identification with it.
Most children in western countries play some sport or games as children and those sports often have the biggest event crowd support within those nations.
Almost everyone in most western countries learns to drive and aspires to own a car, and it is a realistic aspiration many can easily identify with.

But if the top level of motoring sport is exclusive in a physical sense it becomes the realm of a few physically blessed with small size and low weight it becomes the aspiration of a few and irrelevant to the majority. And that will ultimately affect the way F1 relates to many of our younger generations.

45 years ago, 1969, you could but a 1 litre spaceframe F3 car for 35-40,000 quid in todays money and spend a summer racing around Europe earning enough in start money to maintain the car and keep yourself going for food and travel.
You can't do that now, a season in something as basic as FF/F4 is more than double the price. Some parents spend six figures on their son's karting. There's a whole generation who have given up motorsport as an aspiration and we wonder why F1 doesn't resonate with them as an entertainment.

It just got priced beyond their reach.
If it is only for jockey sized people then F1 becomes completely irrelevant too.
It's no longer 'something I can aspire to' or it 'discriminates against even ordinarily sized people like me' they wont turn on to it either.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

You can't do that now, a season in something as basic as FF/F4 is more than double the price. Some parents spend six figures on their son's karting. There's a whole generation who have given up motorsport as an aspiration and we wonder why F1 doesn't resonate with them as an entertainment.

It just got priced beyond their reach.
If it is only for jockey sized people then F1 becomes completely irrelevant too.
It's no longer 'something I can aspire to' or it 'discriminates against even ordinarily sized people like me' they wont turn on to it either.

Great post above T!
I think you are exactly right about how racing is alienating itself from its roots and just moving further and further away from a sport.

I posted this in the F3 thread yesterday, about the costs.

The whole of motorsport seems to be just getting too expensive and over regulated in favour of vested interests and the FIA sanctioned company that thinks it can build one FIA endorsed car for so much money that the directors can all retire immediately!
At the end of the day most of the grass roots formulae have limited budgets and too many people just trying to screw the life out of anyone who wishes to compete.

A few years ago there were 160 FF cars for the Formula Ford Festival, now there are about 30 for the new spec cars and 150 for the Kent engined cars which are now generously being allowed to enter to keep the festival alive!

The FIA needs to go away and take a long hard look at itself and ensure that there is a grass roots formula that more people can afford, it is essential for the future of motorsport!

Kipper then added:

"Last year (and I believe this year), the Festival title was given to the Kent races, which underlines the point being made."


Clearly the interest in racing is still there, it is just being moved out of just about everyone's reach in all sorts of ways, and everything is suffering!

[miatanut]

I think it's just weird that F1 doesn't have a rule like that. Champ Car did:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The minimum weight for a Champ Car is adjusted from 1,575 lbs based on the weight of the driver compared to the field average; with the driver included, all cars have a minimum weight of 1741 lbs. A Champ Car piloted by 195 lb Paul Tracy (the heaviest driver in the series and 29 lbs heavier than the field average) must weigh at least 1,546 lbs when empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_Car

[Adam43]

It does, as long as every car can meet the minimum weight. It's the same rule as F1, just written in a slightly different way.
Similarly ChampCar would have the same problem if they couldn't reach 1,546 lbs. Obviously they can, in the same way that F1 could reach its limit last year.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

45 years ago, 1969, you could but a 1 litre spaceframe F3 car for 35-40,000 quid in todays money and spend a summer racing around Europe earning enough in start money to maintain the car and keep yourself going for food and travel.
You can't do that now, a season in something as basic as FF/F4 is more than double the price. Some parents spend six figures on their son's karting. There's a whole generation who have given up motorsport as an aspiration and we wonder why F1 doesn't resonate with them as an entertainment.

It just got priced beyond their reach.
If it is only for jockey sized people then F1 becomes completely irrelevant too.
It's no longer 'something I can aspire to' or it 'discriminates against even ordinarily sized people like me' they wont turn on to it either.

This is a really astute summary of many of the ills of modern racing!
Well done T!

[wnut]

Still no end to this discriminatory and suppurating stupidity:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1...-weight-limit/


It is really time this was fixed: Dear Bernie think of all the potential driver funding you are missing out from the larger framed kids!

[MGDavid]

that article is dated last April. Is it stupid to still be worrying about it?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

that article is dated last April. Is it stupid to still be worrying about it?

So how has the problem been addressed then?

Who decided it was of no importance?

[AoB Special Stage]

As a relatively tall person, I must recommend some form of parody based on height. Look at Hulkenburg, he's 6'0". Think about what that does to the car's center of gravity compared to say, Felipe Massa, at 5'5".

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by wnut

So how has the problem been addressed then?

Who decided it was of no importance?

It seems it isn't a problem to the people that run F1 and make the rules.
They must be the ones who decide whether it is important or not, and logically one can only deduce that it isn't.

[wnut]

Was the weight limit and starvation diet Alonso's problem?

At the same time, Abad was keen to play down speculation over the cause of the accident amidst claims that Alonso was allegedly seen, just prior to the crash, with his head to one side of the cockpit.

This has led to claims that the driver was unwell or had even passed out, which in itself had led to speculation as to the cause, including claims that an ERS-related issue could have knocked him out.

"I deny that Fernando was feeling unwell prior to the incident," said Adab. "The car had grip, there was tremendous wind and he went into the wall, the rest is speculation.

http://www.pitpass.com/53336/Alonso-...further-checks

[MGDavid]

tremendous wind - oxygen starvation

[wnut]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

tremendous wind - oxygen starvation

So given malnutrition causes bloating and gas, you think he gassed himself?!

[MGDavid]

No, it was probably the McLaren full English, as suggested on the other thread.

[wnut]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ce=mostpopular

Nice to know that weight is the biggest talent a modern driver brings to F1.