[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

Unfortunately, that looks a lot like Mike's schematic on his site.

[Articus]

Finger POINTED.

[chernaudi]

Could be bad news for Toyota, especially if Audi and/or Porsche launch a protest post race. I don't know if Audi would do that, but considering that Porsche has a tendency to be kinda a dirty player, I wouldn't put that past them.

[Articus]

I think Audi and Porsche are equally likely. Audi called out Toyota on the brake by wire system right before practice. Porsche called out Acura at Sebring that year, 2008?, for a little opening in the inner front fender the size of a quarter.

[chernaudi]

And it should be noted that Acura (I assume) issued a counter protest against Porsche for the same thing later in the season.

I don't know what Audi may do, but I do expect Porsche to play dirty and fight fire with fire here, one way or the other. That's been their tactic with their own rule bending and trying to out fox/one up their competitors.

[Skemer]

Makes you wonder why the ACO hasn't demanded to remove this from the car,as it has been running since Silverstone with this assembly.Is it because they think it is within the regulations or they just don't have a clue the Toyota rear wing has this kind of construction.

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by Skemer

Makes you wonder why the ACO hasn't demanded to remove this from the car,as it has been running since Silverstone with this assembly.Is it because they think it is within the regulations or they just don't have a clue the Toyota rear wing has this kind of construction.

I imagine they know, Toyota seem to be masters at somehow getting around the rules though.

[chernaudi]

I do think though that Porsche may very well be pretty devious about this. Like not protesting this until after the race to try and get Toyota DQ'd, which would give them an Audi a bunch of points.

They may seem less likely to protest, but Audi might do something similar, because they have a small ax to grind with the ACO over EoT and them catching Toyota in clear violation of the technical regs outside of that may send a message to the ACO/FIA.

And if Audi or Porsche win, they might still protest, not to get Toyota penalized, but to get a clarification so they can use the same stuff on their cars in the future.

[Articus]

I'm not saying it's out of place but I never got the impression that Porsche played "dirty." Please elaborate. Because I really don't think I know enough to say that they are dirty. Was it the 997 thing with the engine at Petit? Something with the RS Spyder?

Also I'm pretty sure there guys will not let it get so far that Toyota actually wins the race before they protest. Quite simply everyone will accept it that Toyota won, you can't take back a race win post race. It just never works. If they don't come up with something before the race then they probably will just keep their mouth's shut and start using some trick parts on their own cars.

[Rf1 Fan]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I do think though that Porsche may very well be pretty devious about this. Like not protesting this until after the race to try and get Toyota DQ'd, which would give them an Audi a bunch of points.

They may seem less likely to protest, but Audi might do something similar, because they have a small ax to grind with the ACO over EoT and them catching Toyota in clear violation of the technical regs outside of that may send a message to the ACO/FIA.

And if Audi or Porsche win, they might still protest, not to get Toyota penalized, but to get a clarification so they can use the same stuff on their cars in the future.

I don't think it would be in the interest of everybody to see a protest after the race.

If they feel it is illegal now they must protest now or shut up full stop.

It would be very bad for the whole race, we are not in F1.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by Articus

I'm not saying it's out of place but I never got the impression that Porsche played "dirty." Please elaborate. Because I really don't think I know enough to say that they are dirty. Was it the 997 thing with the engine at Petit? Something with the RS Spyder?

Also I'm pretty sure there guys will not let it get so far that Toyota actually wins the race before they protest. Quite simply everyone will accept it that Toyota won, you can't take back a race win post race. It just never works. If they don't come up with something before the race then they probably will just keep their mouth's shut and start using some trick parts on their own cars.

^ tru dat

[chernaudi]

Oh, trust me, Porsche is about the dirtiest player in international motorsports. They've been known as rule-benders and breakers, and have done more than their fair share of devious, underhanded stuff. They basically wrote the book on taking advantage of loopholes and stuff with the rules. Toyota may've set the standard with the GT-One, for example, but Porsche pushed the envelope pretty far too in the GT1 days. To them, it seems that trying to one up people is the rule of the day, even with outlandish rules interpretations.

While Audi may ask for a clarification so they can use something like this later on, we may be seeing the start of a war of gamesmanship and one up-manship from Toyota and Porsche starting to brew.

[TF110]

Still have yet to see it change angles in action. Until you do, you cant say its illegal. Wheres Porsche's swan neck picture?

[Articus]

It's bright as day that Toyota is doing it.


Look at the funny looking attachments of the mainplane and flap to the endplate. You can see that their is provision for the mainplane and flap to pivot downwards along the side of the endplate


Compare that to the Porsche just noting the endplate side for a sec. Not so much. If the Porsche mainplane moved, we might see scuff marks during practice.



Innocent until proven guilty u mean .

[chernaudi]

But until someone does formally protest, nothing will happen. That's where I think some cloak and dagger/hook or crook stuff might be starting up.

But then again, as NASCAR and F1 have shown us, if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'...

[Articus]

It's clear that TMG has got a very very smart team in Cologne.

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by Articus

It's clear that TMG has got a very very smart team in Cologne.

They did the Celica GT-Four with the illegal turbo right?

[Rf1 Fan]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

They did the Celica GT-Four with the illegal turbo right?

Yes former TTE

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

They did the Celica GT-Four with the illegal turbo right?

It was called TTE back then. Those holes look like points to adjust the angle of the wing, doesn't mean its allowing the wing to slide.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TF110

It was called TTE back then. Those holes look like points to adjust the angle of the wing, doesn't mean its allowing the wing to slide.

Toyota's endplate has clear adjustment points. The Porsche does not.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by Articus

It's bright as day that Toyota is doing it.


Look at the funny looking attachments of the mainplane and flap to the endplate. You can see that their is provision for the mainplane and flap to pivot downwards along the side of the endplate


Compare that to the Porsche just noting the endplate side for a sec. Not so much. If the Porsche mainplane moved, we might see scuff marks during practice.



Innocent until proven guilty u mean .

The end plate also has adjustment holes near the trailing edge. The wing is clearly not going to be pivoting at the end plates. Couldn't find a good picture of just the endplates but you can see below that this seems to be just how Toyota chose to do the rear DF adjustments.



Also, as Mike pointed out, the deflection in question is not at the end plates. He mentioned that the wing could have a stiff section near the center span and soft sections near the end plates that would twist. That twist, if Mike is correct, will be significant enough to easily see. IMHO I think it is unlikely, since carbon fiber is pretty stiff stuff and the airfoil of the rear wing has a significantly higher second moment of inertia than say the flimsy body cover of the Porsche which means its much harder to bend.

Until there are pictures of it in action it is not clear as day Toyota is doing it.

In fact thats usually how rear wings are adjusted. Pivot at the front, lock at the back to prevent large variations in leading edge position with respect to bodywork.

[TF110]

The TS030B (2013 year model) had the same thing-

[J Jay]

I can't imagine an amateur photographer getting clear enough pictures of this. Surely even if they did the pictures could be argued due to blurriness/parallax/etc? There's little chance we'll see a suitable video recording either.

Although watching certain posters become more vociferous in their arguments will be fun, whichever of the two teams it turns out to be!

[Articus]

That's last year's wing. The swan neck attachment for this year's car is anything but conventional by comparison. Mike's confidential source suggesting it, Mike explaining how to do it, and the clever carbon fibre laminate. Everything suggest their doing it.

Guilty until proven innocent

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

The TS030B (2013 year model) had the same thing-

I wasn't refering to this part of that area. I was under the assumption that the wing was sliding against the endplate but having re-read mikes post, it's rigid.