[LM24] Worst sportscar ever to win Le Mans

[AMT]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

Jaguar were independent when they went to Le Mans and they DID use an engine CLEARLY identifiable as developed from the road V12 (ignore what happened with the V6 and Cosworth later...).

Using an engine from your range of road cars is very unusual - no, almost unique. Porsche didn't for their prototypes, Peugeot didn't, Toyota didn't - and Audi didn't. In fact, the Bentley was originally intended to use a variant of the W12, until they realised what a disaster it would have been.. So using that as a criticism of the CAR (again, read the title of the thread) is misguided, as is judging its ability on whether the fans took to it. "Worst car" can only mean the car least worthy of winning Le Mans, and on that basis the Bentley can't figure in this poll, because of its reliability and outright speed.

IMO...

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by AMT

"Worst car" can only mean the car least worthy of winning Le Mans....

Yep, and that brings us right back to the Dauer........



Oops.



Nearly forgot.



IMO.

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by AMT

Using an engine from your range of road cars is very unusual - no, almost unique. Porsche didn't for their prototypes, Peugeot didn't, Toyota didn't - and Audi didn't. In fact, the Bentley was originally intended to use a variant of the W12, until they realised what a disaster it would have been.. So using that as a criticism of the CAR (again, read the title of the thread) is misguided, as is judging its ability on whether the fans took to it. "Worst car" can only mean the car least worthy of winning Le Mans, and on that basis the Bentley can't figure in this poll, because of its reliability and outright speed.

IMO...

Well, Mercedes did in the Group C days (albeit with a Turbo or two slapped on), as did Lancia and Porsche.

I think it's hard to criticise ANY car that wins Le Mans in absolute terms. Just getting to the end takes some doing - Being the first there is something special.

But in terms of 'worthiness', the whole Bentley effort smacked of a staged PR event (Neutered Audi effort, no other serious competition) rather than racing, which HAS to make it one of the LEAST worthy PROGRAMMES, if not CARS, to win Le Mans.

Cheers

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

...as did Lancia and Porsche.

...really?

[marcosgt]

Lancia's engine was lifted from the 308 Ferrari (It was a FIAT project after all) and the Porsche engine was a flat 6, aircooled (If I recall correctly) in the earliest 956s, or was it the early 936s?

Memory's not what it was

Cheers.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

Lancia's engine was lifted from the 308 Ferrari (It was a FIAT project after all)

...hm.

and the Porsche engine was a flat 6, aircooled (If I recall correctly) in the earliest 956s, or was it the early 936s?

...from the IndyCar.

[marcosgt]

I bow to your superior knowledge, but a flat-6 is synonomous with Porsche and it WAS a Porsche engine.

Cheers

[cybersdorf]

...whereas the Lancia wasn't even that.

[lj79]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

...hm.


...from the IndyCar.

Probably lost the thread but wasn't the Porsche Indycar engine a V8 (87? i think)

The original 956 2.65ltr flat 6 was new for that car, but derived from the 936 engine with 2.1ltrs?

Cybers - whats the score?

[Nordic]

http://962.com/history/956_962/index.htm

will tell you all you need to know about how the engine went from the RSR in 74 into the 936 via the 1980 indy 500 program then into the 956. Along the way gaining many mods, not least a water cooled head.

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

...whereas the Lancia wasn't even that.

But it was (sort of) - The same block was used in the Thema 8.32...

Cheers

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

But it was (sort of) - The same block was used in the Thema 8.32...

...later.

[marcosgt]

Picky!

[AMT]

So, really, the accusations against the Bentley as a car (national characteristics (whatever they might be), engine origin, etc.) are crumbling. The poster who tries moving the goalposts by calling it "the least worthy programme" gives the game away: the title of the poll is "Worst sportscar ever to win Le Mans". It may well be the least worthy programme (not least by virtue of the strokes that Audi pulled to get the R8's hat-trick of wins before Bentley got their turn), but it was a high-quality car.

[marcosgt]

Blimey - it's only a car...

The Bentley was probably the most wonderful sportscar since Group C, so it clearly was NOT the worst car ever to win Le Mans - VAG's cynical manipulation of the race WAS depressing, so Bentley's win was one of the least worthy, certainly in recent years.

I think I voted for the Dauer, but on the same basis as someone might vote for the Bentley - The Dauer is a 962 - Far from a bad car...

Cheers.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by AMT

So, really, the accusations against the Bentley as a car (national characteristics (whatever they might be), engine origin, etc.) are crumbling. The poster who tries moving the goalposts by calling it "the least worthy programme" gives the game away: the title of the poll is "Worst sportscar ever to win Le Mans". It may well be the least worthy programme (not least by virtue of the strokes that Audi pulled to get the R8's hat-trick of wins before Bentley got their turn), but it was a high-quality car.

...so you mean it was not the car but the people behind it?

Now, I have my opinion about this, you have yours. You will allow me not to share your view that this was a splendid endeavour? Because try as you may, you'll not convince me it was.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Agree with both paragraphs in their entirety, but this has been an interesting thread, nevertheless.

Oh yes, agreed.

I've enjoyed the rest of it too.

[AMT]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

...so you mean it was not the car but the people behind it?

Sorry - I'm not sure what "it" refers to in that sentence. I'm purely talking about the car, not the "endeavour", which I take to mean the marketing of the Le Mans programme. I don't really care what your opinion is of that, because I have none myself. In fact I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion about anything, I'm merely pointing out that by any objective measure the Bentley isn't the worst car ever to win Le Mans. Or even in the top six.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by AMT

Sorry - I'm not sure what "it" refers to in that sentence.

The car.

I'm purely talking about the car, not the "endeavour", which I take to mean the marketing of the Le Mans programme.

Plus the car, the people, and everything under the banner of Team Bentley. But it would have been difficult without a car.

You don't have an opinion of your own, yet dismiss mine as "wrong". Oh well, can't be helped.

[Adam43]

Yes, I see the difference. If the car was called 'Clive' not 'Bentley' then consider it then. Would the question be "Was Clive a undeserving winner?"

[Nordic]

If you strip away all the hype, all the PR and then just look at the car for its technical ability, then AMT is right imho, the car is a very good car, strong, fast and good looking.

If you look at the entire program it always had just one aim, to win in France over a three year program, again it was a success so both the car was good and achived its aim.

The PR behind it, that was cynicial and tried to link the old Bentley boys with the modern drivers, crass and daft IMHO, there was a big play on the history of the marque. I think the motive of the program was to provide a note in the history books and some cars that can be wheeled out at Goodwood, Pebble Beach etc over the next 30 years. If you accept that most major car companys will have trhe same motive us fans will benefit along the way with the odd entry so be it.

I don't think the Bentley was the worst car to win (I personaly don't think there is such a thing any way) because the car was good. The hype or PR was very targeted by people that maybe did not understand the 24hrs as well as others and it showed thru.

[AMT]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

...so you mean it was not the car but the people behind it?

"...so you mean the car was not the car but the people behind it?" Explain please Cybers.

I don't dismiss your opinion of the endeavour/PR/hype/race program at all - that aspect doesn't bother me. It's just that you're objectively wrong about the Bentley being the worst car ever to win Le Mans. IIRC it covered a greater distance and spent less time in the pits than any other ever (on the current cicuit layout), so how could it be? A judgement on the endeavour/PR/hype/race program is subjective, but that's not the title of the poll.

BTW, in this context "worst" is better than "bad": IMO Le Mans has never been won by a bad car, by definition.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by AMT

"...so you mean the car was not the car but the people behind it?" Explain please Cybers.

Attitude. "It's British because we say so - signed, Volkswagen."
(Another round of "explain please"? We can continue this for a while...)

I don't dismiss your opinion of the endeavour/PR/hype/race program at all

Well then I don't have to explain, do I.

- that aspect doesn't bother me.

Well, it bothered me. It marred everything the car stood for. In the end, the car wins the race and stands for the whole effort. Sorry, car.

It's just that you're objectively wrong about the Bentley being the worst car ever to win Le Mans. IIRC it covered a greater distance and spent less time in the pits than any other ever (on the current cicuit layout), so how could it be? A judgement on the endeavour/PR/hype/race program is subjective, but that's not the title of the poll.

I thought yo uwere a technician not a contract lawyer. "Best car never to win Le Mans" and "best racing car ever" don't cover all eventualities. They are provocative. So is this. It got us to page 7 so it obviously worked...

And no, "worst" is not better than "bad", in any context. Let us establish that worst = least good.

"Objectively": look, I value your opinion, so accept mine.
And objectively, we are getting nowhere.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

Attitude. "It's British because we say so - signed, Volkswagen."

I must continue to be perplexed by this...RTN, the group who designed and built the Bentley, was as British as it gets! Guys like Peter Elleray and Allistair Macqueen would more than likely agree vehemetley! Also, the old chestnut that the Bentley was a rebadged Audi is again, so far off the track, it absolutely does not bear any water and never did.

[Aysedasi]

I think Cy has made his position quite clear and I've understood his opinion all along. He knows already I don't agree with it, but lots of people disagree with me on lots of things. I don't see a great deal of sense in trying over and over again to change his opinion when it is obviously not going to change - not does it have to....... I really don't want this (erstwhile excellent) thread to begin to descend into a slanging match because opinions aren't shared - we're all human and different.....and no one of us can say the other is wrong - this aint no mathematical equation......