[Official] Rate the Grand Prix: Qatar Grand Prix 2023

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

They could put in virtual walls on every circuit so it was effectively like Monaco or Azerbaijan....small
And if you hit an imaginary wall you got a time penalty, or a pit stop, on an ascending scale according to the force of the hit...
No so dangerous and no longer in the steward's hands....

You would soon fix the problem....
And a virtual wall is not that difficult....

Absolutely brilliant idea

[Skam85]

Bit weird with the tyres but I liked the different dynamic, this to me proves they need to mandate running each of the three compounds in a race

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

And a virtual wall is not that difficult....

Please explain, because the creation of the virtual wall seems to me to be the only possible problem with your idea.

Moving on to penalties, I think a "penalty chicane" might be the way to do it. The design would be somewhat dependent on the geography of the circuit but ideally would involve a loss of about 5 seconds and safely feed back onto the main circuit. For a minor infringement, one pass through the penalty chicane on the next lap. For something more serious, two or three passes on consecutive laps.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Moving on to penalties, I think a "penalty chicane" might be the way to do it. The design would be somewhat dependent on the geography of the circuit but ideally would involve a loss of about 5 seconds and safely feed back onto the main circuit. For a minor infringement, one pass through the penalty chicane on the next lap. For something more serious, two or three passes on consecutive laps.

You have already touched on the problem with that, which is the geography of the circuit. So why not just stick with 5 seconds being added to the tyre stop?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

You have already touched on the problem with that, which is the geography of the circuit. So why not just stick with 5 seconds being added to the tyre stop?

That would probably be better. Gives them more time to check everything and make pitstops not so crucial

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That would probably be better. Gives them more time to check everything and make pitstops not so crucial

Pit stops are crucial. You want to get your driver in and out of the pits as quickly as possible, especially if you are trying to undercut an opponent, or avoid being undercut yourself. Tack 5 seconds onto the pit stop and that's potentially your strategy messed up.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Please explain, because the creation of the virtual wall seems to me to be the only possible problem with your idea.

Moving on to penalties, I think a "penalty chicane" might be the way to do it. The design would be somewhat dependent on the geography of the circuit but ideally would involve a loss of about 5 seconds and safely feed back onto the main circuit. For a minor infringement, one pass through the penalty chicane on the next lap. For something more serious, two or three passes on consecutive laps.

Like a long lap loop in MotoGP.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

You have already touched on the problem with that, which is the geography of the circuit. So why not just stick with 5 seconds being added to the tyre stop?

I don't have too much of a problem with 5 seconds at the next pitstop, except that teams can vary the strategy to minimise the impact. Penalties shouldn't be subject to strategy.

A bigger problem is when all the pitstops are done and the 5 seconds is added to the race time so what you see isn't what you get.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I don't have too much of a problem with 5 seconds at the next pitstop, except that teams can vary the strategy to minimise the impact. Penalties shouldn't be subject to strategy.

A bigger problem is when all the pitstops are done and the 5 seconds is added to the race time so what you see isn't what you get.

I agree, penalties shouldn't be subject to strategy. Therefore if the penalty has impinged on the teams strategy, or significantly disadvantaged the team, then I think it has done its job. That's why I like the idea of tacking another 5 seconds onto a scheduled tyre stop.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Pit stops are crucial. You want to get your driver in and out of the pits as quickly as possible, especially if you are trying to undercut an opponent, or avoid being undercut yourself. Tack 5 seconds onto the pit stop and that's potentially your strategy messed up.

And that’s the point. It would make pit stops less crucial and mean drivers and teams wouldn’t be so reliant on them. But it’s unlikely to happen I admit

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

And that’s the point. It would make pit stops less crucial and mean drivers and teams wouldn’t be so reliant on them. But it’s unlikely to happen I admit

The mandatory tyre stop has become a crucial part of the overall race strategy. The only way you are going to make tyre stops less crucial is by not having them.

Having 5 seconds added to your stop, has the potential to mess up the overall race strategy, which is something drivers/teams want to avoid and one way to avoid that, is not incur the penalty in the first place, by not exceeding track limits. The penalty is used as a deterrent.

[Aysedasi]

What was the topic of this thread? Remind me.....?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

What was the topic of this thread? Remind me.....?

Indeed. Maybe a thread on penalties and effectiveness?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The mandatory tyre stop has become a crucial part of the overall race strategy. The only way you are going to make tyre stops less crucial is by not having them.

Having 5 seconds added to your stop, has the potential to mess up the overall race strategy, which is something drivers/teams want to avoid and one way to avoid that, is not incur the penalty in the first place, by not exceeding track limits. The penalty is used as a deterrent.

Well yes. I would like to see the mandatory tyre stop go. It doesn't really add much. Let drivers and teams run what they want. However because pitstops are so quick, they would probably still do them anyway

And the penalty is hardly a deterrent if people still do it!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well yes. I would like to see the mandatory tyre stop go. It doesn't really add much. Let drivers and teams run what they want. However because pitstops are so quick, they would probably still do them anyway

And the penalty is hardly a deterrent if people still do it!

I've already gone of topic, so not wanting to do so again, I've started a thread on Penalties and their effectiveness, where this can be discussed.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I've already gone of topic, so not wanting to do so again, I've started a thread on Penalties and their effectiveness, where this can be discussed.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Please explain, because the creation of the virtual wall seems to me to be the only possible problem with your idea.

Moving on to penalties, I think a "penalty chicane" might be the way to do it. The design would be somewhat dependent on the geography of the circuit but ideally would involve a loss of about 5 seconds and safely feed back onto the main circuit. For a minor infringement, one pass through the penalty chicane on the next lap. For something more serious, two or three passes on consecutive laps.

I don't understand your question?
But if you don't understand what I'm thinking about....
Creating a boundary replicated in viewing electronically isn't too difficult to do.
Creating a program that effectively notes the impacts against that virtual wall and assigning a penalty according to the speed and /or the approximate force the impact would be is possible.
We don't want all circuits to be surrounded by concrete walls, but a virtual wall at the track or curb edge would be possible without creating the expense of mechanical damage or human injury.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Creating a boundary replicated in viewing electronically isn't too difficult to do.
Creating a program that effectively notes the impacts against that virtual wall and assigning a penalty according to the speed and /or the approximate force the impact would be is possible.

I love this idea, but geofencing has been discussed quite a bit here in the past. How exactly does this work from a technical perspective? I might be missing some potential solutions, but see three main options

1. GPS/DGPS
2. Local circuit boundary sensors
3. Digital image analysis

For the first, native GPS is not accurate enough (~5m). Some type of Differential GPS (DGPS) system could probably get that to a handful of centimeters. Survey level equipment, maybe even better. Each circuit would need a permanent DGPS reference station. A DGPS survey (not difficult) would need to be done to define the exact circuit boundaries. Cars would need a DGPS receiver. Cars would need to be constantly broadcasting their location data gathered from the DGPS receiver onboard the car. The FIA would need to be monitoring and comparing the cars locations against the circuit boundary location (done via software). I don't know what is the state of the art with respect to DGPS, but I do wonder if the type of DGPS equipment that can get that level of accuracy might not be particular small. So I wonder what the impact will be on car installation.

Embedded sensors would be something like transponders in the cars and a series of loops (like timing loops) around the circuit permitter, or maybe something like magnets embedded along the perimeter with sensors in the cars. This would be a challenge from both an accuracy and cost perspective. The cost could be enormous to implement and maintain at each F1 circuit.

Image analysis would be the least impactful to the current cars, but would require a extensive number of cameras to be able to fully monitor the circuit and from multiple angles. Parallax issues would be the challenge (i.e. if you look at it from one angle it might look OK, when in reality the car was out of the circuit limits). Top down views would be the best. This may be a challenge to make work in poor weather conditions. Basically if spray from tires in wet races is enough, you may not be able to get clear images.

I can imagine a few other permutations of the above. Overall, I think any solution would be significant to implement. I think the one with the most promise might be the DGPS solution. In all scenarios, AI could be used to monitor and detect violations. AI would have to be heavily used for the digital image analysis option.

You might want to check out the discussion in the other thread

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...51#post4181051

Richard

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I don't understand your question?
But if you don't understand what I'm thinking about....
Creating a boundary replicated in viewing electronically isn't too difficult to do.
Creating a program that effectively notes the impacts against that virtual wall and assigning a penalty according to the speed and /or the approximate force the impact would be is possible.
We don't want all circuits to be surrounded by concrete walls, but a virtual wall at the track or curb edge would be possible without creating the expense of mechanical damage or human injury.

Why question was querying the feasibility of the geofencing you proposed. While you think it "isn't too difficult", Richard has explained in some detail why it might be very difficult. I tend to agree with Richard although I would be very pleased to be proved wrong. Hence asking for you to explain more.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I love this idea, but geofencing has been discussed quite a bit here in the past. How exactly does this work from a technical perspective? I might be missing some potential solutions, but see three main options

1. GPS/DGPS
2. Local circuit boundary sensors
3. Digital image analysis

For the first, native GPS is not accurate enough (~5m). Some type of Differential GPS (DGPS) system could probably get that to a handful of centimeters. Survey level equipment, maybe even better. Each circuit would need a permanent DGPS reference station. A DGPS survey (not difficult) would need to be done to define the exact circuit boundaries. Cars would need a DGPS receiver. Cars would need to be constantly broadcasting their location data gathered from the DGPS receiver onboard the car. The FIA would need to be monitoring and comparing the cars locations against the circuit boundary location (done via software). I don't know what is the state of the art with respect to DGPS, but I do wonder if the type of DGPS equipment that can get that level of accuracy might not be particular small. So I wonder what the impact will be on car installation.

Embedded sensors would be something like transponders in the cars and a series of loops (like timing loops) around the circuit permitter, or maybe something like magnets embedded along the perimeter with sensors in the cars. This would be a challenge from both an accuracy and cost perspective. The cost could be enormous to implement and maintain at each F1 circuit.

Image analysis would be the least impactful to the current cars, but would require a extensive number of cameras to be able to fully monitor the circuit and from multiple angles. Parallax issues would be the challenge (i.e. if you look at it from one angle it might look OK, when in reality the car was out of the circuit limits). Top down views would be the best. This may be a challenge to make work in poor weather conditions. Basically if spray from tires in wet races is enough, you may not be able to get clear images.

I can imagine a few other permutations of the above. Overall, I think any solution would be significant to implement. I think the one with the most promise might be the DGPS solution. In all scenarios, AI could be used to monitor and detect violations. AI would have to be heavily used for the digital image analysis option.

You might want to check out the discussion in the other thread

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...51#post4181051

Richard

You're way, way, ahead of my thinking and have extended well beyond my intention.
The interest in track limits is based around gaining an unfair advantage from exceeding the road between the lines,
the areas on any given circuit are limited to the places where an advantage is gained, or where drivers are regularly exceeding track limits to gain an advantage.
Cameras are already operating on places where the track limits are exceeded regularly.

So lining up cameras to not how much the car exceeds the track limit and awarding an ascending penalty that is to either be served by stationary time in a pit stop or added to the overall time is not really very difficult and can be done via a program that doesn't discriminate, unreasonably, and treats every misdemeanour the same way would resolve a lot of the problems and angst.

Qualifying excess could be simply adding 0.5 of a second to the lap time for every excess on a given lap.
Race excess would be longer depending on the level of excess.