ScTCC: New technical rules for 2012

Speed-King · 12 Aug 2010, 14:00 (Ref:2743550)

duke_toaster · 12 Aug 2010, 15:11 (Ref:2743584)

That would be the sensible option.

Speed-King · 12 Aug 2010, 15:38 (Ref:2743601)

And it really pulls the rug from underneat S2000... what national series are left with those cars then?

All I can come up with is:
ADAC Procar
RTCC
JTCC (if it ever gets off the ground)
PortugalTCC...

Not good... the customer car market for the manufacturers and teams in WTCC just evaporated.

touring fan01 · 12 Aug 2010, 15:43 (Ref:2743604)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

That would be the sensible option.

I agree. S2000 is far too costly for most teams so using the BTCC regs or something similar makes sense.

Sodemo · 12 Aug 2010, 16:16 (Ref:2743614)

Interesting...

I Rosputnik · 12 Aug 2010, 16:17 (Ref:2743615)

The Scandinavian Touring Car Championship is ditching S2000 regulations

So what will they go to? NGTC, or the upcomming DTM/Grand Am/Super GT regs? Looks like S2000 has gone past it's peak in touring cars.

(On the flipside Volvo were saying they would go to the WTCC because they like the new S1600T regs.)

Mr Pink · 12 Aug 2010, 16:29 (Ref:2743618)

I would personally love to see the DTM regs but I think it will be to expensive.

A Scandinavian TCC has been a wish of mine for a long time since there's good teams and drivers both in Denmark and Sweden and now when it's happening I'm really hoping for it to be success, with more cars and spectators.

duke_toaster · 12 Aug 2010, 17:17 (Ref:2743629)

NGTC is the sensible option - more show than S2000, cheaper than S2000, far cheaper than DTM.

Speed-King · 12 Aug 2010, 17:28 (Ref:2743635)

Quote:

more show than S2000

Not so sure about that anymore. I asked Alan Gow a few days ago on the BTCC-forum about the aero of the NGTC-cars and his reply was that the rear wing would only be slightly bigger than in Super2000 and smaller than under the BTC-regs and we already know that the pre-specified width of the car doesn't allow for radical bodykits.

If it was up to me, they'd get the almost Super-GT-looks of the current Kissling Astra from VLN: Here

Now imagine such a bodykit on a full-sized saloon...

**FIRE** · 12 Aug 2010, 17:45 (Ref:2743648)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

NGTC is the sensible option - more show than S2000, cheaper than S2000, far cheaper than DTM.

The NGTC artist impression from BTCC looks dull. I tend to say S2000 looks even better. Of course we have to wait for the real car but so far this part of NGTC is a huge disappointment. I hoped for something like TC2000:

Source: Toyotanation

EDIT: Speed-King beat me.

NaBUru38 · 12 Aug 2010, 19:17 (Ref:2743695)

The thicker "side bumper" of the Argentine TC2000 looks worse than the Astra's, but it makes the car stronger while rubbing.

What about the Belgian touring cars? Will they keep navigating their own route?

Mike Sheraton · 12 Aug 2010, 19:44 (Ref:2743723)

Guys touring car racing was based upon the road car from the start, i think moving away from the origional state too much with these radical bodykits would be wrong, NGTC has it just right in my opinion and it is back to 4 door family saloons like the ST era, if the ScTCC moves to these rules it will be a great new era for touring car racing in europe and then hopefully the WTCC will see sence and generate the same rules to allow higher entry lists for them!

So I will sitting on the edge of my seat untill they anounce their decision on rules!

tux · 12 Aug 2010, 20:03 (Ref:2743734)

Ngtc will be just as expensive within 3-5 years as s2000 is now.

Speed-King · 12 Aug 2010, 20:08 (Ref:2743738)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Sheraton

Guys touring car racing was based upon the road car from the start, i think moving away from the origional state too much with these radical bodykits would be wrong

It's probably just me, but you can't say NGTC without saying GT and combined with the semi-silhouette-aspects of the rules and the talk about making the cars more exciting this somehow made me hope for something like a return of a Group 5-ish formula, if with a little less madness.

Completely irrational? Of course!

But wouldn't it be awesome?!

Guess I'll have to wait till the next breakdown of touring car racing...

duke_toaster · 16 Aug 2010, 14:58 (Ref:2745252)

Touring car racing shouldn't be home to cars like the Lancia Montecarlo, but an NGTC+ with RWD only (conversion of FWD or 4WD allowed) and more power would be a good formula for the WTCC.

touring fan01 · 16 Aug 2010, 15:34 (Ref:2745263)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

NGTC+ with RWD only (conversion of FWD or 4WD allowed) and more power would be a good formula for the WTCC.

But you will pretty much knock out a lot of manufacturers from competing in the future in the WTCC because most of them dont sell RWD cars.

Sodemo · 16 Aug 2010, 15:35 (Ref:2745266)

What are the difference in engine costs between a single NGTC unit an a S2000 unit?

duke_toaster · 16 Aug 2010, 15:36 (Ref:2745267)

Quote:

Originally Posted by touring fan01

But you will pretty much knock out a lot of manufacturers from competing in the future in the WTCC because most of them dont sell RWD cars.

As I said, you would be able to convert a FWD or 4WD car over to RWD. Bearing in mind it would be spec subframes that wouldn't be extremely difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What are the difference in engine costs between a single NGTC unit an a S2000 unit?

I think NGTC units are significantly cheaper (I'll check the press release), but they also have longer rebuild intervals.

EDIT : NGTC motors are twenty grand without support, twenty five with it - £8,000 for one rebuild at the end of the year. It supposedly cuts the engine budgets by 50% - link.

touring fan01 · 16 Aug 2010, 16:27 (Ref:2745314)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

As I said, you would be able to convert a FWD or 4WD car over to RWD. Bearing in mind it would be spec subframes that wouldn't be extremely difficult.

I didn't mean technically.

It would knock out a lot of manufacturers from competing in the WTCC because they just wouldnt see the sense in trying to promote something that is the complete opposite of what they are selling on the road.

Or put it around the other way; for example would BMW race a 3 series converted to FWD if the WTCC regs say they should all be FWD? No of course they wouldn't.

Speed-King · 16 Aug 2010, 16:45 (Ref:2745327)

Quote:

Or put it around the other way; for example would BMW race a 3 series converted to FWD if the WTCC regs say they should all be FWD? No of course they wouldn't.

BMW is a bit of a special case, though. For them RWD is a selling point, while for Vauxhall or Chevy or Honda FWD is just a matter of fact.

Sodemo · 16 Aug 2010, 18:19 (Ref:2745385)

Sorry, wrong thread.

touring fan01 · 16 Aug 2010, 18:22 (Ref:2745387)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-King

BMW is a bit of a special case, though. For them RWD is a selling point, while for Vauxhall or Chevy or Honda FWD is just a matter of fact.

I think you might be underestimating the importance of marketing and image. A company like Honda wouldn't race a RWD version of their FWD cars as it would be like admitting their road car engineering is wrong or deficient. How would they explain it to their customers?!

So why bring in a regulation that could have the opposite effect and put off some manufacturers from entering the WTCC? Makes no sense to do that.

Speed-King · 16 Aug 2010, 19:22 (Ref:2745411)

Quote:

Originally Posted by touring fan01

I think you might be underestimating the importance of marketing and image. A company like Honda wouldn't race a RWD version of their FWD cars as it would be like admitting their road car engineering is wrong or deficient. How would they explain it to their customers?!

So why bring in a regulation that could have the opposite effect and put off some manufacturers from entering the WTCC? Makes no sense to do that.

Manufacturers race RWD-versions of FWD-cars all the time... just from the top of my head in the last five or so years:
Audi A4 DTM
Opel Vectra DTM
Pontiac GXP Grand Am GT
Toyota Corolla Axio Super GT
Renault Megane Trophy (various series)
KIA Pro'Ceed BTCS
Volvo S60 BTCS

All of these are manufacturer-run or manufacturer supported programmes.

As soon as RWD is the standard in a series and the rules demand it, it is no longer a statement about the quality or lack thereof of FWD.

touring fan01 · 16 Aug 2010, 21:26 (Ref:2745511)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Manufacturers race RWD-versions of FWD-cars all the time... just from the top of my head in the last five or so years:
Audi A4 DTM
Opel Vectra DTM
Pontiac GXP Grand Am GT
Toyota Corolla Axio Super GT
Renault Megane Trophy (various series)
KIA Pro'Ceed BTCS
Volvo S60 BTCS

All of these are manufacturer-run or manufacturer supported programmes.

As soon as RWD is the standard in a series and the rules demand it, it is no longer a statement about the quality or lack thereof of FWD.

Not one of those examples is a production-based touring car, which is what the WTCC is and is what we are discussing. They are all carbon or space-framed chassised cars and do not use a production bodyshell (like WTCC etc).

If you could give me an example of manufacturers racing production-based cars where they have actually reversed the drivetrain from their production model then I would be pleased to hear of them.

Speed-King · 17 Aug 2010, 05:12 (Ref:2745699)

Quote:

If you could give me an example of manufacturers racing production-based cars where they have actually reversed the drivetrain from their production model then I would be pleased to hear of them.

What you ask of me now is pretty much impossible as so far no ruleset in professional production based racing that I am aware of would allow for that right now. Which of course doesn't say that manufacturers wouldn't do it in a heartbeat if they had the chance to do so.
NGTC is however already straddling the line between production-based and slhouette racing, so it would just be the next logical step to go all RWD.

Come to think of it, there actually is an example: Renault Clio V6 - right, it was a one-make series and right there was a streetcar version of it, but that kinda proofs my point as Renault felt that the streetcar would actually better if it was RWD.

There also was a Mini with an M3-power-train an RWD in Belcar a few years back, but then BMW had nothing to do with that....

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