Lime Rock's capacity for LMPs, GTs, LMPCs, and GTCs

[trahsub]

Given this is my 'home' track, I love that the series visits the Rock every year. I must say though that this year things were getting a little nutty with the GT Challenge cars in the mix. Traffic played such a huge role that the two LMP1 Acuras would easily vary between being <1 second apart to 5+ seconds apart in a matter of laps depending on who they got stuck behind.

That being said, with a grid of, optimistically speaking, 30+ cars from all the different classes, would this be a recipe for carnage? I wonder if ALMS would consider running the challenge classes on their own, kind of like how they had the full GT Challenge race at PLM this year.

It appears the Northeast is a big market for ALMS as they keep returning to Lime Rock. Can one expect Lime Rock will continue to get the bid, or is it possible a different track in this region (NJMP maybe?) may get on the ALMS schedule in the North East?

[Jonerz]

It wasn't a separate Challenge race at Petit, those cars also compete in the Patron GT3 Challenge series, a separate championship from the ALMS altogether. It was certainly an interesting choice to add more cars to the Lime Rock grid this year. If the numbers are somehow alien high next year, or in future, one option the series could look at is running Prototypes and GT's separate. Back in the Exxon and Camel days there were many separate races for GT's and Prototypes.

Chris

[Canada ALMS fan]

If they were to do that at Lime Rock I would hope the challenge cars would run a separate race from the 2 "real" classes. LMP and GT as a race would make more sense than LMP and LMP challenge, GT and GT challenge.

[whitec21]

Assuming my calculations are correct, the maximum number of cars that can race at Lime Rock is a mere 32 cars. This based on the FIA equation N=L*W*T*G where L= length of track, W=width of track, T=duration of event and G=category of cars racing.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by trahsub

It appears the Northeast is a big market for ALMS as they keep returning to Lime Rock. Can one expect Lime Rock will continue to get the bid, or is it possible a different track in this region (NJMP maybe?) may get on the ALMS schedule in the North East?

i hope they continue run Lime Rock. love the track, but part of that track's appeal to the fan is the diceyness caused by the traffic and conjestion. sure it's not that much fun for the driver tho, is it?
what other track would be able/willing to hold a ALMS race in the NE, besides the NASglenCAR or the NJ track? New Hampshire (roval)?

i like the idea of the seperate Challenge classes and the LMP/GT classes races, if you HAD to split it, instead of a seperate Proto and GT. but either would be good to see.

never realized that there was a max number of cars for particular tracks/races, but makes sense.

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

never realized that there was a max number of cars for particular tracks/races, but makes sense.

When the FIA signs off on a track they also set the limit as to the number of cars that can race there. If one were to look at the engineer's drawings of a circuit, that bit of information would also be noted on there.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by whitec21

When the FIA signs off on a track they also set the limit as to the number of cars that can race there. If one were to look at the engineer's drawings of a circuit, that bit of information would also be noted on there.

cool! good to know. thanks, corey!

where i can see a fan find the engineer's drawings?

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

If they were to do that at Lime Rock I would hope the challenge cars would run a separate race from the 2 "real" classes. LMP and GT as a race would make more sense than LMP and LMP challenge, GT and GT challenge.

How so?

Chris

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

cool! good to know. thanks, corey!

where i can see a fan find the engineer's drawings?

tbh I'm really not sure. I just remember seeing them for all the tracks a few years ago, but I haven't seen them since. I'll keep an eye out and see if I can find them for you.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

How so?

Chris

I understand the point. The classes run together the entire year and it's part of LMS style racing to have to deal with LMP/GT speed differentials. Running the LMP-LMPc on their own would kind of take away that challenge.

[Jonerz]

That's true, but for safety's sake me tinks...

Chris

[joeb]

They used to have separate GTO/U and GTP/Lights races on occasion, so if some how car counts were too much I would be open for similar races. On a similar note, I was watching an old IMSA race from the 80's at Road Atlanta and there were over 50 cars running at the same time!!! Now that was traffic!!

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

That's true, but for safety's sake me tinks...

Chris

I think if the line is to be drawn it should have the spec classes on one side as a support race and the real Le Mans classes on the other so as not to devalue the show. Plus if LMP and LMPC ran together there would only be a grid of maybe 14 cars. As for the safety, doing LMP1/2 with GT2 would be no different than we've seen at Lime Rock for the past few years.

[Jonerz]

Yeah, that is true. However, my thoughts are you want to include the spec cars in the racing as much as possible so as to give the teams full value.

Chris

[Purist]

Joeb, I take it that that was the 1985 500k race at Road Atlanta? Yes, that was traffic with 53 starters. Around that same time, they were getting 60+ cars at Riverside; it got pretty crazy in the Esses there sometimes.

The New Hampshire roval is not worth consideration. The long course at Pocono, which uses Turn 1 of the oval, might actually be worthwhile. There's Watkins Glen, with the obvious complications. Thunderbolt Raceway or the Lightning Circuit at NJMP could both be interesting, and Thunderbolt certainly has reasonable facilities (not sure about the other course).

It's hard to find information, but it looks like there may be a decent, 2.8-mile or so road course at Alpine Rose Resort in Wind Gap, PA. Also, the BeaveRun North Circuit is operational with construction underway on the South Circuit. Eventually, the two are supposed to be combined together. I cannot seem to find video on YouTube, but there may be a road course at Valley Motorsports Park up in New Hampshire as well. That covers the present Northeast possibilities that I can think of.

[fieldodreams79]

thought about Pocono but i've only seen an AMA on TV at Louden and nothing at Pocono. too bad Bridgehampton is not still around.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by Purist

Joeb, I take it that that was the 1985 500k race at Road Atlanta? Yes, that was traffic with 53 starters. Around that same time, they were getting 60+ cars at Riverside; it got pretty crazy in the Esses there sometimes.

The New Hampshire roval is not worth consideration. The long course at Pocono, which uses Turn 1 of the oval, might actually be worthwhile. There's Watkins Glen, with the obvious complications. Thunderbolt Raceway or the Lightning Circuit at NJMP could both be interesting, and Thunderbolt certainly has reasonable facilities (not sure about the other course).

It's hard to find information, but it looks like there may be a decent, 2.8-mile or so road course at Alpine Rose Resort in Wind Gap, PA. Also, the BeaveRun North Circuit is operational with construction underway on the South Circuit. Eventually, the two are supposed to be combined together. I cannot seem to find video on YouTube, but there may be a road course at Valley Motorsports Park up in New Hampshire as well. That covers the present Northeast possibilities that I can think of.

I did a track day at Monticello Motor Club in NY this year. The track is beautiful, it's two 2ish mile tracks that can be combined to 4.1 miles. BUT. . . the big BUT is they have ZERO facilities and I don't think they have any interest in a professional race. Great spot though.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by trahsub

I did a track day at Monticello Motor Club in NY this year. The track is beautiful, it's two 2ish mile tracks that can be combined to 4.1 miles. BUT. . . the big BUT is they have ZERO facilities and I don't think they have any interest in a professional race. Great spot though.

YES! outstanding facility. It is a beaut, however any kind of pro racing I don't think will be on the agenda and the track isn't really built in any way for that. I think also the world economic crisis has affected them and many of the things they have wanted to build haven't happened.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

YES! outstanding facility. It is a beaut, however any kind of pro racing I don't think will be on the agenda and the track isn't really built in any way for that. I think also the world economic crisis has affected them and many of the things they have wanted to build haven't happened.

Absolutely. That track came online at the worst time, I'm sure a number of their members got beat up by the effects of the credit crisis. . . Although I'm not complaining since the track started renting out to clubs for track days. I imagine they are renting the track for extra cash flow and it likely wasn't in the original plan.

When I was there they had half the track open for the club, and reserved the other half for members, but since last May, they have offered the full course to clubs. Sick. I hope to get a chance to drive the full course next year.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Absolutely. That track came online at the worst time, I'm sure a number of their members got beat up by the effects of the credit crisis. . . Although I'm not complaining since the track started renting out to clubs for track days. I imagine they are renting the track for extra cash flow and it likely wasn't in the original plan.

When I was there they had half the track open for the club, and reserved the other half for members, but since last May, they have offered the full course to clubs. Sick. I hope to get a chance to drive the full course next year.

Oh yeah they are renting out to others to keep cash coming in, that's how I ended up there. The problem is accommodating members as I believe the original plan was that they'd have access anytime they want. And yeah the same thing happened with us, was that they split the track in half.

Will be interesting to see what happens with that track. However for pro racing or any wheel to wheel racing they'd have to rebuild the track and add infrastructure.

[tkelland]

Not that this adds much to the main topic but I visited the glen this year for the first time and stood in turn 7 (Chute) and imagined the lmp's catching traffic through that corner. Kinda pictured some of the maniacal (in a good way) moves/risks some of the drivers take through the esses at Road Atlanta around that corner. GT on the inside hugging the curbing and a Prototype sliding around the outside with all the downforce! Incredible.

Hopefully if Lime Rock ever were to become too small or unavailable, the ALMS/IMSA could work out a deal with Watkins Glen, although extremely unlikely.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by trahsub

I did a track day at Monticello Motor Club in NY this year. The track is beautiful, it's two 2ish mile tracks that can be combined to 4.1 miles. BUT. . . the big BUT is they have ZERO facilities and I don't think they have any interest in a professional race. Great spot though.

Does Monticello Motor Club have a website? Can you give me a link?

I'm not familiar with it at all, but would love to check out info on it...

If mountainstar endorses it, the place is worth a good, long look...I respect his opinions.

As for Thunderbolt (New Jersey Mortorsports Park), forget it!!!

I know a guy who works for Telmex Ganassi's team and he said the place is not suitable for their series. The team hates the place...

The conditions at NJMP in Grand Am's inaugural race weekend could have cost Scott Pruett his life....improper runoff space and a bit of Armco jutting out at a bad spot that literally split the chassis in half..."Scott is lucky to be alive" (his quote).

His thoughts:

Track is way too narrow ("like Putnam Park"...his quote...which is a 1.8 mile test track)...very few places to pass

The Scott Pruett incident and the problems with course conditions and runoff areas

"There is a hump on one of the straights where DPs were getting airborne when they hit it. There are some fairly fast sections there, but the place really needs to just host sportsracers...it is really a club track and not a circuit that we should be racing at in the future."

Maybe changes were made after that first visit by Grand Am that I am not aware of, but what I just typed is a first-hand assessment from a professional who works for (arguably) the best team in Grand Am...

FWIW

[Speed-King]

There were indeed some changes after the first race... This year GA used a chicane to avoid the hump where they would get airborne last year and there were also some changes to the Armco, IIRC.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

There were indeed some changes after the first race... This year GA used a chicane to avoid the hump where they would get airborne last year and there were also some changes to the Armco, IIRC.

I'll see the Ganassi guy this weekend...I coach his son in football...I'll ask him if he has changed his opinion, but his first impressions were critically negative about the place.

[Purist]

The armco was modified to prevent that problem from happening again as soon as the wreckage of the #01 was removed from the track.

I've always felt that, if the cars are trying to lift off, they're simply too pitch sensitive. Therefore, adjust the cars, not the tracks in those cases. Anyway, the only incident at Thunderbolt of a car lifting the front wheels was with one of the Brumos cars when it was very close behind two cars going side-by-side. Heck, they still warn people about following another car closely over the hump on the backstretch at Road Atlanta.

Thunderbolt is NOT too narrow. At a minimum, it's the standard 40ft (12m) wide the whole way round the lap; I'm not sure that Road America, aside from the start/finish straight, has ever been widened from its original width of 30ft. And Thunderbolt is NOT that "Mickey Mouse" or overly tight on the whole, as without the chicane, the average lap speed for LMPs would certainly be quicker than around Mid Ohio or Laguna Seca.