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Old 21 Jun 2010, 19:56 (Ref:2715959)   #101
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
Wrong, the difference in rpm range is addressed with the gearbox.
NO it is not!!! this is a simple as a bycicle

you pedal faster at the same speed you will have more torque(higher gear ratio)

in other words, a car with 7000rpm redline and a car with 5000rpm redline will have proportionaly different gear ratios, in other word if car one has 500nm on the engine output at 50kmh in 1st gear, and the other car has 550nm at 50kmh in 1st, car 1 will have more torque at the wheels by exacly ((7000rpm/5000rpm)*500nm)/550nm==(1.4*500)/550==700/550 witch is1.27

or at 50kmh the car1 with the higher redline and lower torque will have more force to push the car by 27%


the fact that hanry pecarolo was stating is that the 5.5l deisels twin turbos have so much torque addvantige that even the gearing of higher reving engines cant cope with it I mean the regulations alow diesels 1300NM witch is soch a huge addvantige its not even funny!

if you have 5.5l twin turbo petrol race engine with the same restrictors as the diesel I am 100% sure we would have seen power and torque number out of this world, at the very least I would expect 800hp and 1500nm minimum

Last edited by arakis; 21 Jun 2010 at 20:18.
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Old 21 Jun 2010, 19:59 (Ref:2715963)   #102
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I am sorry maybe I do not understand, but will the maximum torque in the corners at low speed not be comming from the battery?

I think the ACO will have to create a special class for hybrids because of the fact that there are rules around the electricity used for starting an engine. It is to my knowledge not allowed to use the starterengine/ battery to complete a lap and come into the pits for example, are they going to disallow a hybrid car to coast in on the battery when the engine has a problem as well?
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Old 21 Jun 2010, 20:20 (Ref:2715982)   #103
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What seems to be forgotten in this discussion is the basic energy output of Petrol and Diesel.
Petrol burns faster and more easily.
Diesel "burns" (explodes) slower but more power full.

A Petrol vs. Diesel engine will therefore always have different outputs in torque and power, as a Petrol engine can burn petrol faster and get the power more rapidly. A Diesel engine will consume the Diesel slower, but the power comes in larger burst.
A Petrol engine will therefore give more HP and a Diesel more Torque.
(I don't know if this make any sense in the discussion)
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Old 21 Jun 2010, 20:50 (Ref:2716003)   #104
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Originally Posted by arakis View Post
in other words, a car with 7000rpm redline and a car with 5000rpm redline will have proportionaly different gear ratios, in other word if car one has 500nm on the engine output at 50kmh in 1st gear, and the other car has 550nm at 50kmh in 1st, car 1 will have more torque at the wheels by exacly ((7000rpm/5000rpm)*500nm)/550nm==(1.4*500)/550==700/550 witch is1.27

or at 50kmh the car1 with the higher redline and lower torque will have more force to push the car by 27%
Sorry, but I don't understand your example. Using the formula on wikipedia:
  • Car1 has 500 Nm * 7000 rpm / 9549 = 366 kW.
  • Car2 has 550 Nm * 5000 rpm / 9549 = 288 kW.
Yes, that the first car has 27% more power.

That is exactly why the ACO rules intend to give all engine configurations (NA petrol, GT1 petrol, turbo petrol, turbo diesel) the same power.
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if you have 5.5l twin turbo petrol race engine with the same restrictors as the diesel I am 100% sure we would have seen power and torque number out of this world, at the very least I would expect 800hp and 1500nm minimum
That is obvious. A diesel engine runs on a lean mixture and a petrol engine with a (near) stoichiometric mixture. So with the same amount of air, a petrol engine can burn more fuel and hence produce more power.
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Old 24 Jun 2010, 15:06 (Ref:2717457)   #105
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I was looking at the SpeedTV gallery of Le Mans and it has a lot of good closeup shots of the R15+: http://www.speedtv.com/gallery/view/1047619/358425
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Old 24 Jun 2010, 16:33 (Ref:2717487)   #106
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 09:34 (Ref:2723925)   #107
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Peugeot might have the edge in the development of the new 2011 car: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...iple-stint-78/
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• A few tipsy Peugeot mechanics let loose during post-race celebrations that the French team is almost ready to shake down their new V8-powered 2011 LMP1 car. That would be many months ahead of schedule, so we might need to blame their statement on the alcohol.
• Audi’s R18 is set to break cover in December, and will continue with the current testing routine in Europe and America that helped the R15 plus to grow by leaps and bounds.
While Peugeot is retaining their driver line up for next, Audi might make some changes.
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• Peugeot was quite happy with their driver line-up this year after a lot of juggling took place from 2007 to the beginning of this year's event. Look for their 2011 line-up to be a mirror image of 2010. The same can’t be said for Audi, and I’ve heard a few changes – some quite surprising – could be on tap for next year.
Does this mean the retirement of the next Audi oldie, Dindo Capello?
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 10:04 (Ref:2723939)   #108
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It's possible, though Dindo had done well this year. Still, he's as old(if not older) than Pirro, who no longer driver for Audi regulary in anything, certinaly not the prototypes. However, in Pirro has proven to be fast in the Dryson Lola when he's driven it, so Dindo might have a future, even if it's only endurance races, and he was one of the few who got the handle on the R15 rightaway.

Also, could this play into Kristensen's DTM retirement? He's been wanting to run sportscar's fulltime, and he and McNish have formed quite a partnership, in part thanks to Capello. Could maybe Dindo be talking with Dr. Ullrich and discussing steping aside to contribute to another Audi Sport dynamic duo?

Also, for the Audi R18, since some drivers are still critical about the R15's front grip, maybe Wolfgang Appell should examine the Acura ARX-02's front and rear supension, as it's a zero-keel layout, and that grip couldn't just come from insane downforce numbers and the wide front tires-the suspension had to do it's bit, too.

I also doubt that Peugeot would be this close to testing their new car, because the ACO has yet to offically publish the 2011 rules. Granted, the rules for 2010 were 90% as proposed in July of last year, but both the Audi R18 and the Peugeot 909 right now more than likely only exhist in this form: CAD and concept drawings. We don't even know with certianty if the R18 or the 909 will be open or closed(though both will likely be closed from what is known--even Dr. Ullrich has hinted that the R18 may be a GTP car), or if they even be gas or diesel or have KERS, and we probably won't know about either until at least December.

Last edited by chernaudi; 9 Jul 2010 at 10:12.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 10:12 (Ref:2723943)   #109
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I have been following this thread on and off for the last while, but I was wondering if someone could maybe answer a question I have.

Is at this point known whether Audi will stick to a spyder with the R18 or opt to go for a coupe?
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 10:41 (Ref:2723960)   #110
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I find this new pug being ready very believable - the ACO quite often give out a set of rules to manufacturers before they are oficially released to the public, I dare say Pug and Audi actually wrote the new 2011 engine regs in collaboration with the ACO which has been done several times before.........I know for an absolute fact thats what the ACO did with one team for this years race, but I "think" I was told in confidence so will keep quite about who it was....... but you should be able to work it out!!!

so pi55ed mechanics telling more than they should - I find it highly believable to be honest.........a few years back I was very VERY reliably told that Dr Ulrich got drunk at a formula palmer audi bash and blurted out that Audi had developed a V12 diesel LMP1 and it was 2 seconds a lap quicker than the R8........I posted the thread on 10-10ths and everyone ridiculed me as usual........which is a sad state of affairs to be honest.

my bet is still on both Audi and Pug going the diesel route, because by maths its still a set of highly bent regulations which will allow them a big advantage over privateers with gasoline engines.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 10:47 (Ref:2723962)   #111
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That would mean that Peugeot can do 5 months of testing before the R18 hits the track.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 11:57 (Ref:2723995)   #112
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That would mean that Peugeot can do 5 months of testing before the R18 hits the track.
The engine may be tested on the dyno quite soon but Famin said that the 90X shouldn't hit the track before the very end of this year.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 15:26 (Ref:2724090)   #113
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I have been following this thread on and off for the last while, but I was wondering if someone could maybe answer a question I have.

Is at this point known whether Audi will stick to a spyder with the R18 or opt to go for a coupe?
It is rumoured to be a coupe.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 15:58 (Ref:2724106)   #114
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It is rumoured to be a coupe.
Thanks for the pointer. However, Murphy also suggests that the R18 might be canned because the ACO is taking to long with the new rules.
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Ingolstadt won at Le Mans and continued to talk about the R18 as if there were such a thing. Though a few parts and pieces and some engine development can go forward on whatever “slush funds” Ulrich can tap, major advancement of the program depends on funding approval by Volkswagen’s Management Committee. Dr. Ulrich can’t even ask the board until he has a rule set to build to. The ACO hasn’t yet provided one, and that’s the problem, of course, just as it was in 2008 and 2009.
I doubt Ulrich will have a hard time convincing the board with the recent Le Mans 1-2-3.
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However, continuing rules prevarication from the ACO has caused a GT program to become a much more attractive option to Audi. One source says that the R18 – if it does go ahead – is now a “Le Mans only” car; not LMS, not ALMS, not LMIC – Le Mans ONLY.
That one is rather hard to believe, because Audi experienced last year that racing is a necessity in the development of new car.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 18:18 (Ref:2724150)   #115
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Ulrich already confirmed Audi would be in the 2011 ILMC in Autosport.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 07:17 (Ref:2725255)   #116
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It is rumoured to be a coupe.
Many thanks!

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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
Thanks for the pointer. However, Murphy also suggests that the R18 might be canned because the ACO is taking to long with the new rules.
I doubt Ulrich will have a hard time convincing the board with the recent Le Mans 1-2-3.
That one is rather hard to believe, because Audi experienced last year that racing is a necessity in the development of new car.
I was just reading here and in another thread about the ACO's indecision. This is a huge problem and could have far ranging implications for prototype racing. A decision needs to be made, and made sooner rather than later.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 09:10 (Ref:2725309)   #117
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Also, for the Audi R18, since some drivers are still critical about the R15's front grip, maybe Wolfgang Appell should examine the Acura ARX-02's front and rear supension, as it's a zero-keel layout, and that grip couldn't just come from insane downforce numbers and the wide front tires-the suspension had to do it's bit, too.
It seems to me that the R15 is already a zero-keel design at the front - maybe I misunderstand what zero keel means, but the suspension is mounted to the sides of the monocoque, and the nose sits completely above the front diffuser.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 11:20 (Ref:2725376)   #118
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I'm well aware that the R15 is a zero-keel design, as was the Acura. I asked this in the technical forum, but how can a zero-keel layout effect the handling of the car aside from a slightly higher CG and camber recovery issues?

Especially considering that the R10 and the 909 will likely have zero-keel suspension front and rear like the R15 and the ARX-02.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 13:28 (Ref:2725469)   #119
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Especially considering that the R10 and the 909 will likely have zero-keel suspension front and rear like the R15 and the ARX-02.
I understand that the R15 and the Acura have a raised nose to make room for the front diffuser and hence they pickup point of the lower suspension arm is higher than traditionally. However isn't there only one option to mount the rear suspension on the car? By have pickup points on the side of the gearbox? See for instance last picture of http://www.mulsannescorner.com/PorscheRSSpyder-5.html

What makes the Acura rear suspension "zero-keel" (see here for a good picture) and others not?
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 14:50 (Ref:2725519)   #120
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The R15 has zero-keel rear suspension(Audi's original PR refered to the R15 having a raised rear suspension and the You Tube video of the R15's assembly shows the "raised"/zero-keel rear suspension).

Audi obviously wanted to keep the air flow under the car as clean as possible.

Why run zero keel on the front but not the rear?
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 15:03 (Ref:2725526)   #121
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Why run zero keel on the front but not the rear?
All the suspension pick-up points at the rear of a F1/LMP car are generally on the gearbox casing. The keel(if it exists) is only an element of the tub, so I don't think "zero-keel" is something which can be applied to the rear of a car.
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 01:18 (Ref:2725848)   #122
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All the suspension pick-up points at the rear of a F1/LMP car are generally on the gearbox casing. The keel(if it exists) is only an element of the tub, so I don't think "zero-keel" is something which can be applied to the rear of a car.

A zero keel design is such where the suspension is mounted to the side of the monocoque and the entire monocoque itself is further raised leading to a high angle between the suspension and the monocoque. The advantages are that it raises the bottom of the monocoque up and out of the way of the front diffuser and the airflow exiting off the trailing edge of the diffuser. The negatives is that it increases the height of the center of gravity. It would make no sense to apply a similar concept at the rear of the car given the concentrated mass of the gearbox and the desire to keep half shaft geometries within reasonable angles. The spec underfloor doesn't allow any freedom of design thus raising the gearbox and the rear suspension would gain nothing.

The original R15's rear suspension mounting points are slightly raised in attempt to clean up the air flowing through the rear channel.
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Old 19 Jul 2010, 20:27 (Ref:2729287)   #123
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DIESEL is far superior

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you forgot to add under current regulations
a 5.5l petrol TwinTurbo with VTG vs a 5.5l Diesel twinTurbo with VTG and under same restrictors the petrol would eat the dieasel for breakfest and ask or more, even if the max hp were the same, although i cnt see that happening


Absolutely the contrary, NEVER BET YOUR WAY ... look the evidence is there. The stupid obsolete petrol engine has had more than 100 years of development in motorsport ... and the problem is the fuel not the mechanical parts by themselfs. Petrol doesn't allow high rates of compression due to physical and chemical proprieties of the substance... and because of that, including those physical and chemical proprieties, is a "slow burner" compared with Diesel that literally explodes inside the cylinders under high compression. Experimental engines have achieved rates of 40:1 in volume compression

The trick developed for petrol engines, along a century of experimentation, is mechanical balance of the moving parts... time that "sport" high RPM diesel engines haven't had yet... allowing the injection of large amounts of fuel(petrol) in the cylinders to overcame its "slow burning" mode. Upon doing so the engines became very noisy, because a high rate fuel injection gives the engine the necessary energy to achieve high RPM (otherwise not possible), but its TORQUE is MEDIOCRE because a relative high percentage of that injected PETROL BURNs in the EXHAUST PIPE... the reason for the NOISE... and the reason why PETROL engines will always CONSUME MORE FUEL... in "endurance" type race rules, 9 liters difference in full tank between petrol and diesel, in favor of petrol, yet in pit stop accounts diesels have always won in its category.

Rule of thumb you can apply with any super-engineer "petrol head" that love "oil oligarchs"- scum of the earth; is that NOISE is a clear sign of INEFFICIENCY NOT POWER... if "he" objects, suggest him vacations in the Gulf of mexico for him to take deep plunges in the pristine waters of the "Caribe" sea.

The bottom line is; is motorsport to promote PURE SPORT or the profits of carrier criminals and their substance infested with war blood ?... Petrol engines make Oil Oligarchs, special high performance, to have psychotic psychological orgasms, of how a single device as contributed so much for their criminal fortunes in detriment of the planet and all its peoples. Because the pressure and influence to make such "unjust" regulations against diesel by the ACO, must only for sure have the fingerprint of those greased greedy little fingers of the scum of the earth.

I don't know how to put it... but if one is smart and not a dumb, a stupid petrol head (NOISE=INEFFICIENCY) sheeple, one would never buy a petrol car again... ever... more so if one loves speed and powerful cars.... i had a VW Golf II 1.9TDI rated 115HP and with a change of turbo (NO NOT that much turbo pressure) and control box tweaks and an adapted Passat gear box transmission( more robust).. and i had a 270HP motor at the dynamometer... for less than 2000€ ... yet consuming substantially less than an equivalent rated petrol engine, FOR SURE... what an "overhauling program" it would not give!!... those engines come "cut" from factory by the same scummy greased greedy little fingers influence.

FOR SURE... if Audi or Peugeot wants to win LeMans again they will stick with Diesel... unless Diesel is abolished, because so far even with clearly "unjust" unjustified rules against Diesel, Diesel has not only won since 2006 but it has delivered a severe beating to petrol every time !... only a blind could not see that. And for sure if Diesel remains we will never see equal rules but only prejudice against diesel... if ACO is to maintain its vast sponser network...until we get out of oil...

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Old 19 Jul 2010, 23:58 (Ref:2729410)   #124
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Sorry, but this is elementary physics: power = speed (~torque) x speed (~revs). Diesel engines don't rev. So in order to produce the same power as a petrol engine, a diesel engine needs more torque. Just look at production cars:
  • BMW 335d: 210 kW (286 hp), 580 Nm
  • BMW 335i: 225 kW (306 hp), 400 Nm
Even though the diesel engine has slightly less power, it has more torque.

Also the ACO has already the highlights of the 2011 engine rules: petrol 2 liter single turbo vs diesel 3.7 liter twin turbo. So clearly diesels will retain their torque advantage.
Max power is illusory Power = troque(force) x speed of the engine. Power "on the ground" by every unit of time in the average of the length to be measured is the key. An engine to achive 10K RPM has to pass from 3/4K RPM all up to 10K RPM... by the time those obsolete petrol engines achieve its max power superior to diesels they have already lost half mulsane straight, because their torque is so much inferior!...

Wrong assumption if you think its a question of fuel for torque... its a question of efficiency... simply "petrol" can't allow it to be superior to diesels because of its physical and chemical properties... yet there are already petrol engines that function on the principles of diesels... no spark plugs... high pressure combustion ignition instead. But i'm afraid they will always be inferior to diesels, because would not have higher compression rates compared to diesels, and OTOH then they will not be able to rev so high as now... and the scum oil lords will oppose it because no more psychological mind control game with noise( engines more silents)... and more fuel efficients...

But to see clearly the current paradigma, as example, what good would be to have a 10 liter engine, be it any fuel you like, if it has to get its "AIR" through a "cocktail straw" diameter size pipe ???? ... the engine would not even start...

A 2 liter petrol engine with 3 times more "air restrictor EFFICIENT possibilities" would beat a 7/8 liter diesel engine any time. F1 1.5 liter UNRESTRICTED turbo engines achieved more than 1000 HP at the Dynamometer... 4 cylinder inline, single turbo with 4.2 bar turbo pressure.... doesn't matter if VGA or whatever, what counts is the max pressure... but that was in the time when F1 cars had 300 liter tanks, lasting half GP length, meaning 2,7 miles/gallon... meaning in lemans a stop every 7 laps or so for refuel ( if the pilot as a little sense in the max pace) with a 90 liter tank... (they could never win lemans).

All being equal, petrol engines will always lose because they are the least efficient.

So what matter are the "AIR restrictors and the weight". Those 5.5 liter lemans diesels with the restrictors of 2006, could be achieving 8K RPM or more by now, and close to 1000 HP... a beating so severe to petrols with that enormous torque acceleration then possible, that ACO by command of the oil scum, put sizable restrictions for "air restrictores" and "weight" on the diesel cars right next year...

No wonder ACO is in disarray with new rules every year... supposedly they want to be fair to all contenders, but the oil scum doesn't let them... not even a new contender with a diesel engine is allowed to enter, Nissan or Toyota could have had it already, UNLESS NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO WIN Lemans but Audi and Peugeot...

Though when everything started those 5.5L diesels had ~650 HP at 5K RPM... what have they saw( the oil scum) that panicked them that we can't hint ??...

... is it that diesels CAN rev high to ??... not has much as petrols because its explosive nature of combustion make them harder to achieve the proper mechanical balance of its moving parts ?? ... yet achieve close to 20% superior fuel consumption efficiency with an equal or superior overall efficiency ??

So don't get surprised if those 3.7L diesels achieve 8K RPM and the times per lap in 2011 are very close to the times of 2010... he!... that is why the "restrictor rules" have not yet came out... or are in a limbo... the scum lords have the last word... and i bet they(restrictors) will not be equal for diesels and petrol.

Comparative with commercial cars are nonsense. The engines are with different purposes and marketing... different dynamic management and control of the engines. If it were to take the max performance possible out of a same engine volume, to match oranges with oranges in that department, with could bet with 100% certainty to win on the diesel.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 02:29 (Ref:2729428)   #125
hcl123
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Originally Posted by knighty View Post
... so pi55ed mechanics telling more than they should - I find it highly believable to be honest.........a few years back I was very VERY reliably told that Dr Ulrich got drunk at a formula palmer audi bash and blurted out that Audi had developed a V12 diesel LMP1 and it was 2 seconds a lap quicker than the R8........I posted the thread on 10-10ths and everyone ridiculed me as usual........which is a sad state of affairs to be honest.

my bet is still on both Audi and Pug going the diesel route, because by maths its still a set of highly bent regulations which will allow them a big advantage over privateers with gasoline engines.
Easy to solve, as with any other type of engine... they could buy diesel engines and build cars around then like they did if it were petrol. There are only 3 Petrol manufactures any way with relevance in LPM1 ... Judd, Aston Martin, Mazda... there are 2 for diesel...

the problem is that sub-conscientious everybody is waiting when the rules is so damn bent in favor of petrol that diesel will lose... big time... until now that bet has been on the losing side and everybody is sored and bitter... but AOC doesn't want to punish diesels with 200kg more and air restrictors so tight that would not allow a fly to pass trough, because that would make it so much balantely obvious... that even a die hard petrol head would notice...

The bitterness is that no one likes to bet on the losing side... but the obvious statement is that petrol engines are obsolete, the evidence is there, no matter how many fouls the good marketing of noise=power is able to deceive.
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