[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by Articus

That's last year's wing. The swan neck attachment for this year's car is anything but conventional by comparison. Mike's confidential source suggesting it, Mike explaining how to do it, and the clever carbon fibre laminate. Everything suggest their doing it.

Guilty until proven innocent

Well all of the above was IMHO. We can agree to disagree, not that I have any part to play in the decision making process regarding the legality of Toyota's wing.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Compare last year's central rear wing support:

...with this year's:


The difference is pretty obvious. The central portion of the rear wing is allowed to rotate at speed thanks to the single mounting point as highlighted by Mike:


A blatant violation of the rules. Period.

[Articus]

I would hate to think there was no secret weapon

Anyways it will all become clear. As it always does!

[TF110]

Thats 2012's car.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Compare last year's central rear wing support:

...with this year's:


The difference is pretty obvious. The central portion of the rear wing is allowed to rotate at speed thanks to the single mounting point as highlighted by Mike:


A blatant violation of the rules. Period.

You're right last year's does have adjustment points on the center pillar.

I don't know quite what to make of it now haha

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by dbagtbag

Also, as Mike pointed out, the deflection in question is not at the end plates. He mentioned that the wing could have a stiff section near the center span and soft sections near the end plates that would twist. That twist, if Mike is correct, will be significant enough to easily see. IMHO I think it is unlikely, since carbon fiber is pretty stiff stuff and the airfoil of the rear wing has a significantly higher second moment of inertia than say the flimsy body cover of the Porsche which means its much harder to bend.

Carbon isn't as stiff as you assume. If you build it right, depending on weave, and orientation, it can be pretty darn flexible.

[TF110]

If the wing moved, the teams would see it. Of all the test day, the practice and qualifying sessions no team has been alert enough to see if the wing moves? Im doubtful. Audi and Porsche have been behind Toyota on the straights for long enough to make this observation, but no word of it?

How would it move at speed without the 2nd element moving with it? There, the mountings are the same as the previous Toyota lmp's. This means only the central point of the main plane would move if the stiffness is retained at the attachment on the endplates? I cant see how with the attachments to the 2nd element being rigid the wing would move.

[Articus]

Your right the flap does move with it. It would move due to flexibility near the center.

[Skemer]

Ok i've been looking carefully at the schematics and the photo's for a second time.Can anybody with an engineering degree or maybe even Mike himself clarify how the mainplane is able to rotate at speed while it is connected to the gurney flap(or whatever you call it)with metal connectors.

[Bandicoot17]

If Toyota have been clever enough to design this, I'm certain they'd have a way of stopping the rotation if it was deemed illegal.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

If the wing moved, the teams would see it. Of all the test day, the practice and qualifying sessions no team has been alert enough to see if the wing moves? Im doubtful. Audi and Porsche have been behind Toyota on the straights for long enough to make this observation, but no word of it?

How would it move at speed without the 2nd element moving with it? There, the mountings are the same as the previous Toyota lmp's. This means only the central point of the main plane would move if the stiffness is retained at the attachment on the endplates? I cant see how with the attachments to the 2nd element being rigid the wing would move.

Thanks to the single mounting (pivoting) point where the main plane of the rear wing connects to the swan neck support, the central portion of the rear wing will necessarily be allowed to rotate downwards at speed under the action of air pressure, thereby allowing the whole rear wing to bend.

I honestly cannot see how this can be allowed to race. The ACO-FIA should react on their own motion, especially after their recent clarifications about "movable bodywork parts/elements".

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Carbon isn't as stiff as you assume. If you build it right, depending on weave, and orientation, it can be pretty darn flexible.

Yeah you're definitely right, the strength of carbon fiber is dependent on the direction of the fibers. Thanks for pointing that out.

Originally Posted by Articus

Your right the flap does move with it. It would move due to flexibility near the center.

Yeah the entire thing would need to flex near the middle. I'd really like for someone to pull out a good camera and snap a picture of it down the mulsanne.

I really do have a hard time believing though, that this has gone unnoticed since Silverstone. And I'm pretty sure the rear wing center pillar hasn't changed since the Prologue.

[MyNameIsNigel]

@RacecarEngineer: Tomorrow brings wings and things, GT500 & DTM news, Rotary happenings and the small matter of a race in France!

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

=D

[Articus]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

[TF110]

Same thing at Spa. No protest there.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

The ACO-FIA should react on their own motion, especially after their recent clarifications about "movable bodywork parts/elements".

Is this moveable or flexible?

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by TF110

Same thing at Spa. No protest there.

=)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Is this moveable or flexible?

No proof its either. The mount has been there since at least Spa, I think Silverstone also.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by TF110

No proof its either. The mount has been there since at least Spa, I think Silverstone also.

Its been since the Prologue.

[CyberMotor]

What if it also rotates upwards and backwards in a high downforce situation (spinning backwards) and then the wing becomes a NASCAR-type roof flap?

I think a rotating center-mounted flexible wing can be an efficiency as well as safety solution. I like it and hope it is legal.

It is also the first iteration of an idea I had years ago for a fold-over rear wing that rotates in case of rear spins. The idea being that the wing is hinged in the center and can react to the air pressures around it. Didn't think this would be the way it first got applied. Will be interesting to see if it can also fold backwards in emergency situations.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

What if it also rotates upwards and backwards in a high downforce situation (spinning backwards) and then the wing becomes a NASCAR-type roof flap?

I think a rotating center-mounted flexible wing can be an efficiency as well as safety solution. I like it and hope it is legal.

It is also the first iteration of an idea I had years ago for a fold-over rear wing that rotates in case of rear spins. The idea being that the wing is hinged in the center and can react to the air pressures around it. Didn't think this would be the way it first got applied. Will be interesting to see if it can also fold backwards in emergency situations.

In a nutshell, the flexible rear wing that Toyota(provisionally) designed on the 040 is a sort of automatic, speed-dependent DRS system, which might bring them 10km/h of speed advantage on the straights, given the effect of DRS in F1.
What's more, in Silverstone the 040 was in HDF package so it's likely that the rear wing wasn't part of it. As for spa, the fact that it passed scrutineering there makes this more suspicious rather than innocent. With all respect, I do believe that this will end up in the form of another clarification, thanks to you-know-what-I-mean politics. Toyota need this champion to stay and promote WEC and vice versa.

[MyNameIsNigel]

A very interesting interview of Pascal Vasselon (in French) by Laurent Chauveau of Endurance-Info.com.

Vasselon in particular stresses the "no-compromise" approach followed by Toyota:

Si votre système hybride tombe en panne, est-ce que, comme sur la TS030, la TS040 doit s’arrêter ou peut-elle poursuivre sa route ?

« Elle s’arrête. »

N’est-ce pas l�* un point faible par rapport �* Audi par exemple ?

« Si l’on parle de finir la course, oui. Si l’on parle de la gagner, non. De nos jours, pour gagner, il ne faut connaître aucun problème et se situer �* l’optimal en permanence. Avec le niveau d’hybridation que nous avons, le système doit être opérationnel durant l’intégralité des 24 Heures. Donc nous n’allions pas faire un compromis, lors de la conception de la voiture, tenant compte du cas ou le système hybride ne marcherait pas. Si il ne marche plus, nous considérons que nous ne sommes plus compétitifs et dès lors, peu nous importe de continuer. Nous sommes l�* pour jouer la gagne. Dans le même esprit, nous n’avons pas cherché �* tout prix, �* rendre la voiture facilement réparable en cas de problème technique. Si l’on doit changer la suspension parce qu’elle a cassé, même si on le fait �* la vitesse de l’éclair, la course est fichue. La voiture qui gagne ne s’arrête que pour les pneus et le carburant. »

Let's hope for them that the race will run smoothly.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

In a nutshell, the flexible rear wing that Toyota(provisionally) designed on the 040 is a sort of automatic, speed-dependent DRS system, which might bring them 10km/h of speed advantage on the straights, given the effect of DRS in F1.
What's more, in Silverstone the 040 was in HDF package so it's likely that the rear wing wasn't part of it. As for spa, the fact that it passed scrutineering there makes this more suspicious rather than innocent. With all respect, I do believe that this will end up in the form of another clarification, thanks to you-know-what-I-mean politics. Toyota need this champion to stay and promote WEC and vice versa.

I remember them doing over 330kmh the past couple years. I dont think their top speed is an indication they have a cheat rear wing. If it is, there has to be proof. We will see.

[ger80]

If it reduces drag at high speed, it will also reduce fuel required at high speed