Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[Maelochs]

Mazda does diesel to promote their SkyActiv diesel for the street. I see no reason they would move up to P1 any time soon---they don't seem to be willing to spend serious money on the P2.

Not saying the program is under-budgeted, just that the company is running a normal racing program, not going all-out to develop the new motor. They seem content to go slowly both on track and in development.

The step up to P1, to mot be a complete waste of money, would be a Huge step up. (How many people at Toyota are tearing their hair out because they thought they could save a few yen by going with only two cars?)

I can't see Mazda going to P1 until they have success in P2, and if they can't beat what are basically a bunch of privateers (albeit some very rich ones) in TUSC P2 what could they do against Audi? Or even Rebellion (which pretty much owned TUSC P1 when it did run there)?

From whatever rumor I have heard, Mazda does plan to go to Le Mans, but I'd bet they do it with P2 first, to gain experience. I don't get the feeling that Mazda corporate is interested in dumping a few hundred million in a three-year program fighting the kings of the hill anytime soon.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Why do Mazda have to go on diesel when they could use hydrogen instead? Audi takes care of the diesel department currently.

To promote its Skyactiv brand, with the Skyactiv-G(Atkinson cycle) petrol engine not suited for racing. The 2.2 L production based diesel is more or less proved plausible by the GX Mazda 6. All they need is to squeeze 50 more hp from the 400hp unit to catch up with Judd, Nissan and HPD.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Corvette Racing in particular seemed to think they could be more competitive with a GTE with air restrictors as opposed to some kind of electronically limited (or whatever) GT3 motor, and pretty much refused to play if GTE engine regs weren't retained.

Possibly Corvette was worried that ion a GT3 chassis they'd be forced to run the 427, which would be ungainly in a road-racer. I don't know why they'd worry, seeing the V8 Z4 .... whatever.

The way I understood it, the proposed electronic limiting method would mean cars would have a controlled torque curve and hard maximum number, effectively eliminating the chance to use engine development to find more performance.

I don't see any reason why the 427 would be a problem, but none of the new Corvettes use it anyway, they would need the 6.2L if they needed to keep a stock displacement motor for some sort of rules thing. If the press stuff is to be believed, the 5.5L they currently run is based off the same block as the 6.2L so it shouldn't be a problem of packaging.

[MitchZ06]

The old C6Z06 ran the 427 quite happily.....

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

To promote its Skyactiv brand, with the Skyactiv-G(Atkinson cycle) petrol engine not suited for racing. The 2.2 L production based diesel is more or less proved plausible by the GX Mazda 6. All they need is to squeeze 50 more hp from the 400hp unit to catch up with Judd, Nissan and HPD.

Yeah, promoting the Skyactiv-D is great, but I'm hoping for a Wankel engine. Then again, it's impossible in the current ruleset.

Still, I feel that moving up to LMP1 would be a bigger challenge for Mazda. They're not the favorites since 1991...

[Maelochs]

" ...I feel that moving up to LMP1 would be a bigger challenge for Mazda."

Well ... let's see if they can handle the challenge of P2 first.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Still, I feel that moving up to LMP1 would be a bigger challenge for Mazda. They're not the favorites since 1991...

They were not any kind of favorites even in 1991. Check WSPC results.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by deggis

They were not any kind of favorites even in 1991. Check WSPC results.

Yeah, I know that Jaguar are the favorites back in 1991. But after that, it's everyone's game until Audi came along.

[hondafan37]

Rumours and nonsense at Le Mans
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...se-at-le-mans/

[Mt. Lynx]

Just read through this:
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/que...tegorie-lm-p2/
What do you think they should do? Abolish P2 from WEC? Cut costs even further and see if any MFG's bite?

[templer]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

Just read through this:
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/que...tegorie-lm-p2/
What do you think they should do? Abolish P2 from WEC? Cut costs even further and see if any MFG's bite?

Really hard to say, but it is clear that the LMP2 class in the WEC has a problem. And it doesn't become better if manufacturers throw their cars which were hidden LMP1 cars ( Dome, Onroak-Ligier, HPD) on the market in a cost-chapped version. These manufacturers belong all into the LMP1-L category. It doesn't help them to design cars and don't get the development costs back by selling them and it doesn't help teams to run cars which are highly advanced and needed more money and more technical background to run them.

For me the crucial point is that there is no competitive customer engine avaiable for the LMP1-L category. Let us see how the AER engine will be in the back of the Lotus. I am sure if there are more suitable engines on the market we would see cars like Dome or Onroak in the higher category.

The LMP2 class can only survive as a pure private team class without hidden LMP1 technology

[Deleted]

I don't see what would be accomplished by doing that (other than elimination of the annoyance that is team straightout buying itself Le Mans entry by just entering the series)

How about

WEC
LM P1 (H)
LM P2
LM EX ***
LM GT *

ELMS
LM P1 (L)
LM P2
LM P3
LM GT *

AsLMS
LM P2
LM P3
LM GTC1 **
LM GTC2 ****

Le Mans
LM P1
LM P2
LM GT1 *
LM GT2 **

* (insert GTE as temporary placeholder here in the absence of something proper and interesting)
** (insert GT3 as temporary placeholder here in the absence of something proper and interesting)
*** some sort of optional & varying invitational class, like guest GT500 cars eglibility for Japanese round, USCC prototype eglibility for US rounds, LMP3 eglibility for (non LM) European rounds etc
**** One-make cars from Audi Cup, Porsche Cup, Ferrari Challenge, Lamborghini Trofeo etc

[madfast]

the success of LMP3 is key to the future of LMP2. hopefully LMP3 can effectively replace LMP2 while LMP2 effectively replaces LMP1-L. LMP2 would have its own world championship and draw top drivers, teams, and manufacturers.

[TF110]

No. Keep lmp3 as a junior level stepping stone to higher lmp2 or 1. They dont need 3 classes of prototypes. No hybrid privateer class either. <800kg, bigger fuel allowance, bigger fuel tanks. Lmp2 will solve itself. GT is the only confusing class imo.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by TF110

No. Keep lmp3 as a junior level stepping stone to higher lmp2 or 1. They dont need 3 classes of prototypes. No hybrid privateer class either. <800kg, bigger fuel allowance, bigger fuel tanks. Lmp2 will solve itself. GT is the only confusing class imo.

imo 3 classes is perfect

Factory Team = LMP1
Privateer Pro = LMP2
Privateer Am = LMP3

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TF110

No. Keep lmp3 as a junior level stepping stone to higher lmp2 or 1. They dont need 3 classes of prototypes. No hybrid privateer class either. <800kg, bigger fuel allowance, bigger fuel tanks. Lmp2 will solve itself.

Yep.










L.P.

[TheMightyM]

This really is all about filling out a grid. Random thoughts:

1. Can the ACO and FIA attract additional manufacturers to GTE? More different types of cars in GTE goes a long way towards filling the WEC grid and helps at the ELMS level too.

2. It’s pretty clear that there are a limited amount of gentlemen driver dollars interested in P2 and most of those drivers would rather do ELMS + Le Mans than the WEC. Le Mans remains key in terms of making ELMS P2 programs come together. The reserve list often just isn’t good enough to.

2a. 2015 may be a tough year to get a Le Mans invite as an ELMS team, as the addition of Nissan and the return of the Viper will likely take five spots that went to ELMS teams this year.

3. The WEC is now chasing a different type of gold — as in young gold-rated drivers with financial backing — by allowing all pro lineups in WEC P2. To what degree this will work remains to be seen.

4. What P2 is at Le Mans is a huge issue. Or really three related issues: Presume Le Mans allows all pro-P2 lineups, are the current ELMS P2 gentlemen drivers/check-writers still interested? And if so, can an ELMS P2 team even get a Le Mans invite (see 2a)? And if the answer to either of those questions is “no”, where does the money that would have funded that P2 team go? Does it stay in ACO-style racing or go elsewhere?

5. The business case for LMP-1L is not particularly compelling and may well get worse in the future. The more LMP-1H cars are on the grid, the less the chance a privateer team has of getting an overall podium finish. If the WEC adds an addition race or races, that just increases the cost of participation in the series and at Le Mans, which remains the big issue.

6. Unless the number of both LMP-1L and LMP2 cars increase in the WEC in 2015, it’s very likely that LMP-1L gets folded into LMP2 in 2017. Six cars between the two classes just isn’t enough! Allowing all-pro P2 lineups in the WEC eliminates a key difference between LMP1-L and LMP2 and is a step towards combining the two classes.

7. I think it’s best to think as LMP3 as a sort of residual. How much of it a series needs depends entirely upon how well — or poorly — it does in attracting other types of cars. I doubt it has a place in the WEC, TUSC, or ELMS.

[lms]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

This really is all about filling out a grid. Random thoughts:

1. Can the ACO and FIA attract additional manufacturers to GTE? More different types of cars in GTE goes a long way towards filling the WEC grid and helps at the ELMS level too.

I hope they can!! porsche vs ferrari vs aston is getting boring, especially with the same porsche model since.... 2007????? where the f is the mclaren gte? or lexus. or bmw! or anything.

[lms]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

2. It’s pretty clear that there are a limited amount of gentlemen driver dollars interested in P2 and most of those drivers would rather do ELMS + Le Mans than the WEC. Le Mans remains key in terms of making ELMS P2 programs come together. The reserve list often just isn’t good enough to.

lets not forget that lots of new models are coming out next year. Almost all of them coupes. Some drivers only have licence to drive closed cars. Maybe other teams are simply waiting until the new cars come out. or maybe lmp2 in wec is simply too expensive for private teams. One reason to keep lmp2 in the wec and tusc even if there are only a handful of cars is that the chassis manufacturers have another market to sell their lmp2s

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by lms

Some drivers only have licence to drive closed cars.

What?

[lms]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

What?

i mean some gentlemen drivers are prohibited to drive open top lmp2s, so they cant race them

[MagVanisher]

If 2015 are swelling up with entries like Nissan, I wonder if ACO and FIA finally agreed to expand the pits in Le Mans? 56 entries isn't gonna fit if they would hand over invitations to ELMS, AsLMS, and TUSC.

[Simmi]

I don't understand why people are trying to push gentleman drivers out of P2 - the only people that actually have any money.

If manufacturers don't step in a pro class just won't fly. The resurgence of the ELMS shows that P2 is a great formula. I wouldn't change much in the class. The clever use of a young silver can effectively give you an all-pro line-up if you want one, but still gives pro-am squads a shot.

They just need to make the WEC and its travel more attractive some how. I'm sure ironically if they do run a short season in 2015 it will be well subscribed. Graham Goodwin made a good point about the calendar. Creating stability in each round is great for attracting manufacturers, but if you are a gentleman driver why would you keep on doing the same thing again and again?

It's yet another argument to have the WEC run on great tracks, not Tilkedromes.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

If 2015 are swelling up with entries like Nissan, I wonder if ACO and FIA finally agreed to expand the pits in Le Mans? 56 entries isn't gonna fit if they would hand over invitations to ELMS, AsLMS, and TUSC.

The ACO was talking about adding more garages a couple of months ago but that was before a ton of withdrawals had them go through their reserve list and more to ultimately end up with an empty garage for the race. I suspect that they’re kind of in “believe it when we see it” mode at the moment — they’d obviously like to add more garages but talk is cheap and want to make sure that all this talk of additional cars actually amounts to something.

And there are a lot of uncertainties — it’s anybody’s guess what impact opening up WEC P2 to all-pro driver lineups will have and the GTE regs are still TBA.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by lms

I hope they can!! porsche vs ferrari vs aston is getting boring, especially with the same porsche model since.... 2007????? where the f is the mclaren gte? or lexus. or bmw! or anything.

I completely agree that WEC GTE needs more diversity. The GT convergence talks effectively put a hold on new GTE efforts over the last few years — no manufacturers were going to get in with the uncertainty about the rules going forward. Now that those talks have failed, it’s up to the ACO and FIA to put out a new set of rules for GTE going forward. I’d like to think that they’d attract additional manufacturers but that remains to be seen. To be fair, it’s a big-dollar (or euro or yen) commitment to mount a serious Le Mans challenge and the establishment of the WEC and TUSC make things even more expensive.