Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Creep89]

Well the way I wrote the comment wasn't the best, for sure. But I still think that they had the same idea but didn't use it. Can't find the interview of Jüttner where he explained the situation.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

And if they already had the wing design like Toyota's why didn't they run it? They certainly have the budget for it and could have implemented it in a test session after they saw Toyota's wasn't frowned upon.

There is a difference in testing a solution in the windtunnel to understand it and racing it on two cars. They would have to design in new nose to balance the added rear downforce and they would have to manufacture these new aero package (rear wing + nose) in a certain quantity. All this effort for a few races, before it would in Audi's eyes get banned...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Well the way I wrote the comment wasn't the best, for sure. But I still think that they had the same idea but didn't use it. Can't find the interview of Jüttner where he explained the situation.

There were two interview with Jüttner in which he commented on the Toyota rear wing.

We will not invest in something like that for the last two or three races of the year. You will not see it from us and honestly, I believe that next year, you won't see it at all anymore.

They will change the rules in a way as they did from 2009 to 2010, when in 2009 the R15 was declared legal. It was protested by Peugeot but the protest was dismissed. But over the winter, the ACO changed the rules so that the R15 from 2009 would not be legal anymore, so we had to do a major change to the R15 plus.

With Toyota's wing, I'm pretty sure it will be the same because this is not what the ACO/FIA wants. Toyota obviously found a clever loophole, as did we with the R15, and that's what the game is all about.

source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-ralf-juttner/

We will not be on the grid tomorrow with a second end plate, and I doubt that we will have that in Brazil or during this year. Yes it is a very clever interpretation, we all find solutions that people ask, ‘how the hell can this be?’. Think about the R15 – it was a very similar thing, it was just clever. Probably during the rest of the year, you will see the first copies but I guess the FIA and ACO will do something, I don’t think it will be the standard rear end of a sportscar for 2013 or ’14. They found a hole and made proper use of it, which is fine. That is what they were supposed to do, and we do the same.

source: http://lendurance.co.uk/2012/08/wec-...sh-and-rumsey/

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

There is a difference in testing a solution in the windtunnel to understand it and racing it on two cars. They would have to design in new nose to balance the added rear downforce and they would have to manufacture these new aero package (rear wing + nose) in a certain quantity. All this effort for a few races, before it would in Audi's eyes get banned...

Yes, but it was a rhetorical question. As shown in your second comment, they had no plans to run it because they didn't think about running it. They admit Toyota found a clever interpretation of the rules like they'd done before. That was my point from the first post I started talking about the subject A big circle it all is

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

There is a difference in testing a solution in the windtunnel to understand it and racing it on two cars. They would have to design in new nose to balance the added rear downforce and they would have to manufacture these new aero package (rear wing + nose) in a certain quantity

Not so , there was no evidence of that on the Dallara or Audi R8R .

Lower the downforce they previously ran .

Fair comment : Toyota obviously found a clever loophole, as did we with the R15, and that's what the game is all about.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Not so , there was no evidence of that on the Dallara or Audi R8R .

Lower the downforce they previously ran .

Not according to Vasselon

So then, these rear end developments have meant a change in the front diveplanes.

“Of course, because with the new rear end we create a lot of additional downforce, which you need to balance, leading to changes at the front. The front wheelarches are a little shorter, with a longer overhang of the splitter, and then with a small change on the diveplane we have balanced the extra downforce.”

source: http://lendurance.co.uk/2012/08/on-a...scal-vasselon/

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

There were two interview with Jüttner in which he commented on the Toyota rear wing.
source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-ralf-juttner/

source: http://lendurance.co.uk/2012/08/wec-...sh-and-rumsey/

Sources at Audi tell me they've developed their own solution starting some months ago, even before the Toyota solution was made public, in spite of Juttner's denial.

[chernaudi]

I though that the story that Audi had their endplate solution for a while. I'd have to think that they probably started work on it around the time that TMG did, or maybe earlier, considering that it was reportedly wind tunnel tested.

[TF110]

Vasselon stated before they even raced that their car would push the envelope of the rules. So I believe the double endplate may have appeared at Spa if they were able to race.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Vasselon stated before they even raced that their car would push the envelope of the rules. So I believe the double endplate may have appeared at Spa if they were able to race.

I expect that Toyota would have raced with Le Mans aero in Spa. Audi also did this the last 2 years.

[TF110]

You would think that, but then you could say the same about Fuji as well, but they stuck with the double wing.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by GT3.14

Speedhunters article on the R18 engine.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/08/the-monoturbo/

This article has a picture of the MGU, but is difficult to judge its size.


http://www.dieselpowermag.com/events...diesel_vs_gas/ has another picture, which shows the size of the MGU much better:


The article explains that the MGU weighs less than 50 pounds (= 22.7 kg). In the pre-season speculation, knighty estimated that the Audi front MGU would weigh around 20 kg (see post #2475 and post #2710). So he was spot on with his estimate.

[gwyllion]

Mike has analysed the revised rear end of the R18 in http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsnov12.html


He spectulates the changes might the result of switch from front to rear hybrid drive.

[Creep89]

According to John Dagys Tweet Audi is also testing at Aragon.

[gwyllion]

Michelin is organizing a session with some teams to test tire developments for 2013.

See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3158580

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Mike has analysed the revised rear end of the R18 in ...
He spectulates the changes might the result of switch from front to rear hybrid drive.

That sounds like a sensible move. The minimum speed rule wasn't helping.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

He spectulates the changes might the result of switch from front to rear hybrid drive.

That was my first thought. I can't imagine such an aerodynamic penalty would be necessary just to improve turbo cooling.

[TF110]

Could it be? Audi giving up on their 'quattro'? They'll need to fix tire wear issues still. If they can do that, perhaps they'll be able to keep Toyota's pace.

[Simmi]

They got a nice year of marketing out of the quattro and were able to win both the WEC and the 24. Very interesting development if they now cover off Toyota's rearward drive.

I wonder if they might try and hedge their bets like this year by keeping one quattro?

[Adam43]

I think they will be able to challenge next year.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think they will be able to challenge next year.

Yeah 2013 could finally be Audi's year.

[TF110]

I only said keep Toyota's pace. being lapped at Brazil and Shanghai, that's certainly not keeping pace. They have the fuel consumption advantage, but what happens if Toyota makes a brand new engine that allows them better efficiency (compared to this year)? It's going to be a great season. I also wonder if there will be more 'hybrid release zones' on the tracks for 2013.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Could it be? Audi giving up on their 'quattro'? They'll need to fix tire wear issues still. If they can do that, perhaps they'll be able to keep Toyota's pace.

The tire issues could have been related to the front wheel hybrid drive

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The tire issues could have been related to the front wheel hybrid drive

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the Audi tire wear issues front tire related? We also have to remember that the rear wheels on the Audi and Toyota have an ASR traction control system. I'm not sure if such a system was functional on the Audi FWD hybrid system. That ASR has proven to be very kind on the Toyota and Audi rear tires.

And then there's issues with the FWD system with handling, too, possibly.

I also wonder if a RWD hybrid system is potentially lighter than the FWD system, too. The still have to carry a ton of ballast up front to get the wide fronts to work, but I do think that a RWD system won't add a ton of weight, and if it's lighter, it can allow the use of a more powerful storage medium--larger flywheel?

Also of note is that the car, aside from the modified rear deck, is essentially running 2012 spec sprint race bodywork. IE, no widened endplates, no changes to the nose to balance that out. It seems that the main deal was the revised hybrid system.

[gsmith2424]

If the changes are to change the Audi to a RWD Hybrid would the system be able to take the torque of the diesel engine? This is the only reason I could see as to why Audi went to the FWD hybrid this year.