Yellow or green flag?

[mjpiotr]

Yesterday's Monaco qualifications and Kovalainen's spin (first one) remembered me of one of the questions about fagging I always have. Kovalainen spun just in front of the flag post (flag marshal) and then the yellow was throw out. I don't want to judge the particular marshal, but just ask the general question: should it be yellow or green? The car was before the flag post, so according to the rules it should be green, but... the coming drivers would see the flag way before they reach the spot. What would you do in this situation? I, personally, would do same as the marshal did. But would like to hear form more experienced flaggies.
A link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWX2-N9xWu8 (bad quality, but the only I found)

[Steven Humphrey]

We had a similar situation during the FIA GT3 race a couple of weeks ago at Silverstone when a Corvette beached itself in the mud, opposite the Luffield in flagpost. The flaggy waved a yellow but I was wondering whether a green should have been shown. The problem there is that the flag point is so far from the track, the flaggy could well have seen the incident as after him, but from my position (Luffield centre) it looked slightly before the post. A speccy has mentioned elsewhere on this site that it looked way before the flag point from his position. I'm sure if he was watching from the other side of the complex it would have appeared to be well after the post. The point I'm trying to make (quite badly!!) is that the flaggy can make the decision based only from his position so unless you are also at that position, it's difficult to judge otherwise.

[EvilPumpkin]

We had that discussion at the time, while we were watching. It's a judgement call. I'm not 100% clear on what flag rules they were using yesterday as I saw a steady yellow out at one point, so I don't know if they were going full FIA or if the qually was being done under local rules.

I guess the text book answer is that they should show a green. However, given how short the flag sectors are on that circuit, they may have had a "repeater flag" arrangement set up with the previous flag post. Equally, there may have been a visibility issue between the two flag posts and the only way to notify them of the incident was to put out a yellow.

Given how close to the incident the flag post was, I don't see any issue with going yellow, provided the yellow will force one at the previous post i.e. double waved for FIA rules and single waved for normal rules.

Just my own opinion.

[Asp]

By the book, it's straightforward, it's a green if the incident is before the post, otherwise it's yellow.

I always temper that with "never say never and always be wary of always".

Taking the issue with visibility and not being sure if it's before or after the post - what I'd do depends what visibility the preceeding post has. If they can see the incident and I'm not sure what flag I should be waving, I'll go green (so that the preceeding post will obviously go yellow). That way there is a larger area protected before the incident and a minimal after. If they can't see the incident because of a blind spot, or they're single manned and the flaggie looks like he's looking the opposite way, I'll go yellow - so that the incident is covered.

Similarly, there are exceptional situations (I've done it once) where you can justify putting out what technically may be the "wrong" flag - when you take into account visibility, sight lines, nature of the incident, and everything else. You have to take a judgment call at the time, and stick with it.

[Shelagh]

My rule of thumb is that most "foreign" circuits seem to run their own flag rules regardless of any blue or yellow books.

Hence their need to jump out on track waving a yellow just ahead of rear of stricken car etc.. Amazing powers that the flags have in terms of protection...

I've done it myself at Le Mans - standing out there waving an oil flag while the slick is being dressed. It's madness, but it is what is expected.

[Lord Summerisle]

when you watch some of the classic F1 on the BBC's red button of Monaco - they seem to have a history of a unique way of yellow flagging. Seems they always try to get near the car and wave a yellow, in the 70s and 80s they would stand infront of the car or to one side facing the oncoming traffic and wave the flag, later standing behind the armco in line with the car - then either side of the incident normal flag rules seem to apply.

[mjpiotr]

Thanks for answers. Yes, it very much depends on the situation on th etrack, position of other flag points, and all this things you cannot see/know while armchair marshalling

Originally Posted by Lord Summerisle

when you watch some of the classic F1 on the BBC's red button of Monaco - they seem to have a history of a unique way of yellow flagging. Seems they always try to get near the car and wave a yellow, in the 70s and 80s they would stand infront of the car or to one side facing the oncoming traffic and wave the flag, later standing behind the armco in line with the car - then either side of the incident normal flag rules seem to apply.

And I think today I also saw some marshals running down the track, behind the armco thought, with yellow flags, to be in front of incident.

[Hepatic]

you did which is one of several reasons why i commented in a different thread that i'd seen a lot of very good flagging over this weekend. very much like protecting a car that is being pushed in pitlane, all be it a mush faster pitlane

[Steven Humphrey]

I don't usually flag, just done a few days in 2 years, so was wondering what our more experienced flaggies would do if a car came to rest right in line with their flag post? Would it be a case of looking to the previous post & see what they're showing, ie waved yellow would mean you show a green or would you just instinctively throw a waved yellow?

[White flag man]

Personally I would move in front of it and wave a yellow. Do not want to be standing behind a car holding green flag, in case it gets hit!
If it's across the track from me, I would probably still do the same.

[mjpiotr]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Personally I would move in front of it and wave a yellow. Do not want to be standing behind a car holding green flag, in case it gets hit!
If it's across the track from me, I would probably still do the same.

I've never thought about moving in front before, but I think it is a very clever idea! But on the other hand, I was only flagging few times and it was always Silverstone, where it is sometimes difficult to move.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by mjpiotr

I've never thought about moving in front before, but I think it is a very clever idea! But on the other hand, I was only flagging few times and it was always Silverstone, where it is sometimes difficult to move.

Quite true,
don't advise you to move if you're on the tower at Luffield, there's a big drop!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Lord Summerisle

when you watch some of the classic F1 on the BBC's red button of Monaco - they seem to have a history of a unique way of yellow flagging. Seems they always try to get near the car and wave a yellow, in the 70s and 80s they would stand infront of the car or to one side facing the oncoming traffic and wave the flag, later standing behind the armco in line with the car - then either side of the incident normal flag rules seem to apply.

thought I saw them do this yesterday, yellow flag out on track, up track of incident - ? at the Trulli accident. Anyway, it's still fairly standard practice (on French posts) at Le Mans.

[Woolley]

When flagging, you want to protect the approach to the incident, not the area after it. FIA flag rules give you little option with just a waved yellow and no prior stationary, so if you're next to the incident on the exit of a blind bend (say Copse) and you're waving a yellow then the first the approaching traffic is going to know about it is as they exit the blind part of the bend. If you've just got a car parked by the wall with the driver getting out unaided, that's probably OK, but if you have a problem nearer to the track or marshals are in attendance then it's not good enough.

There are now two options.

1) The previous post could also wave a yellow. Not strictly in accordance with the letter of the FIA rules, but can be justified in spirit - if you believe cars need to slow through your section even for an incident that's not quite in it, then nothing says you can't wave a flag as well. This probably gives the best warning as long as it's only done sparingly, we don't want the yellow over-used.

2) If the incident is very close and you can either move a couple of steps at most or justify that it's effectively clear once they've passed you, you can show the green and force the yellow upstream to the previous post, thus producing a similar result but without such a long stretch covered or the risk of too much yellow. (can't move if the flag point is fixed of course, and it's a decision you shouldn't take lightly - you've told them where the flag point is on the green flag lap and that's where it must remain give or take a yard or two) Remember that if the incident is alongside you and you're showing yellow, you've effectively shut down racing for a couple of hundred yards of clear track after they've passed you.

Under British rules with the preceding yellow then you're also making a decision as to whether it requires waved or stationary so what you do may be subtly different. In all cases, you're still applying the same question. 'What am I communicating to the drivers?' If they're good to go once they've reached your flag then it's green, and if not it's yellow.

IMO with regard to the original incident, I would have expected green from the marshal by the car and yellow on the post prior. However, that assumes the previous post wasn't showing yellow as well - there may well be a local agreement to do so. What little I've seen of the coverage suggested that the flaggies were pretty sure of what they were doing under the rules. The question is whether the rulemakers knew what they were doing, of which I'm less confident.

[EvilPumpkin]

I have moved, on occasion, to cover an incident that has happened very close to the flag post. It does depend on the location. In this case, I was on a corner and the while the prev flag post could see me, they wouldn't have been able to see the car as I was standing on a high bank.

Like everything, it's a case of "it depends" I think. But certainly if you're on a sector with very short flag sectors and you have an almost full track blockage, the priority is to get flags out as far back as you can, within the flag regs, to give the drivers as much notice as you can.

In the incident with Barichello, I would definitely have supported what the flaggie did - moving just behind the car and going with double waved.

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Personally I would move in front of it and wave a yellow. Do not want to be standing behind a car holding green flag, in case it gets hit!
If it's across the track from me, I would probably still do the same.

Pleased to read that - I recall about a year ago, you (I think) were Copse In & I was Copse Out and had a visitor park just short of my toes. By stepping forward with a waved & you dropping to stationary we protected the incident until the driver was out, but without neutralising half the straight. Once the driver was clear, I dropped to stationary for a lap and then down to hazard board (couldn't see if you had yours out or not!). I half expected some "feedback" from somebody later on, but we seemed to get it right and get them racing asap without compromising safety or locking out a huge chunk of the circuit. Not sure how far I'd have pushed the boundaries for an FIA event though - always got the feeling that they lean toward pedant rather than "a bit of common"?

[PieMan]

I hope that flagging remains an art and not a science, certainly in club racing. I've not had much chance to do it in the last couple of years but I always used to bear in mind whether I was being helpful by showing a flag (or not). We have a fair amount of discretion as to if and when to display a flag but once we do the drivers are required to obey the signal.

As flag points move further back from the edge of the track doubt grows over exactly where a yellow zone starts and finishes. The point at which the drivers can clearly see your signal may now be 200+ metres before the point at which they are level with you and there could be all sorts of carnage between the two.

As for the incidents in practice/qualifying at Monaco then I think it's correct (helpful) to go for the yellow even if the car is just before the post. Any other cars need to be warned ASAP and may have already passed the point at which they could see the previous post. Once you've counted to ten you can then decide whether to change your signal and/or move so that it can be seen better, taking into account what the adjacent flag points are doing and what the incident marshals are likely to do next.

[Dave Brand]

Am I missing something here? I though Woolley had pretty well covered this.

The stationary yellow/waved yellow/green sequence neutralises two sectors irrespective of where the flags are relative to the incident.

If you move forward to wave a yellow just before the incident you are only neutralising one sector before the incident & half, more or less, of the neutralised length of track is after the incident; what's the point of preventing overtaking & requiring drivers to be prepared to stop when they have passed the incident? You are also effectively halving the distance at which the drivers are warned of the incident; is that in the best interests of marshals' & drivers' safety? Surely, if the incident's before your flag point you present a green, irrespective of how far in front? Of course, the flaggie at the previous flag point may decide, if it's a serious incident, that he also needs to show a waved yellow. . . now we have three sectors neutralised!

Now here's a thought. . .

. . . if a flaggie moves away from his post to cover an incident could a driver who was penalised for overtaking under yellow appeal that decision on the grounds that the flag was not shown at the designated flag point?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Am I missing something here? I though Woolley had pretty well covered this.

The stationary yellow/waved yellow/green sequence neutralises two sectors irrespective of where the flags are relative to the incident.

If you move forward to wave a yellow just before the incident you are only neutralising one sector before the incident & half, more or less, of the neutralised length of track is after the incident; what's the point of preventing overtaking & requiring drivers to be prepared to stop when they have passed the incident? You are also effectively halving the distance at which the drivers are warned of the incident; is that in the best interests of marshals' & drivers' safety? Surely, if the incident's before your flag point you present a green, irrespective of how far in front? Of course, the flaggie at the previous flag point may decide, if it's a serious incident, that he also needs to show a waved yellow. . . now we have three sectors neutralised!

Now here's a thought. . .

. . . if a flaggie moves away from his post to cover an incident could a driver who was penalised for overtaking under yellow appeal that decision on the grounds that the flag was not shown at the designated flag point?

Yep, that's what I was trying to say. If the accident is close to you, ideally you'd like to be able to go green in order to allow the post before you to show the yellow to neutralise the approach and give advance warning. Particularly so with FIA rules where there is no preceding yellow officially. (Nothing to prevent the preceding post deciding that the incident is sufficiently serious to warrant designating that sector as a controlled zone as well, of course)

The last part - I would expect that to be the case. If you're in a flag post - Silverstone, Donington - you're stuck where you are. Depending on how far away the incident is you can sometimes be creative with where you decide the dividing line of before/after falls. At Oulton or Mallory your spot is not quite so precisely defined so you can move a few steps in either direction but we're really talking a couple of yards at most.

In Italy or Monaco, I think it's OK to sprint 50 yards to stand in a position of danger next to the wreckage in order to make sure that no overtaking takes place in the sector following the accident...

[Pete LMC]

Now here's a thought. . .

. . . if a flaggie moves away from his post to cover an incident could a driver who was penalised for overtaking under yellow appeal that decision on the grounds that the flag was not shown at the designated flag point?

I feel that the driver would certainly have grounds to appeal, but how successful he would be ?? is another story.

Pete L M C ( Trainee Flag )

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Yep, that's what I was trying to say.

I understood what you were saying. . .

At Oulton or Mallory your spot is not quite so precisely defined so you can move a few steps in either direction but we're really talking a couple of yards at most.

Flag points at Oulton are precisely defined. There's a photo in the Post Chief's folder (why don't more circuits give Post Chiefs folders with all the information relevant to the post?) showing where the flaggies should be standing.

In Italy or Monaco, I think it's OK to sprint 50 yards to stand in a position of danger next to the wreckage in order to make sure that no overtaking takes place in the sector following the accident...

"Look Ma, I'm on telly"!

[Pete LMC]

Kovalainen spun just in front of the flag post (flag marshal) and then the yellow was throw out. I don't want to judge the particular marshal, but just ask the general question: should it be yellow or green? The car was before the flag post, so according to the rules it should be green, but... the coming drivers would see the flag way before they reach the spot. What would you do in this situation?.

Speaking as a Newbie/Trainee having only done 10 Flag Sessions,
my views for what worth they may or may not be, are given the circumstances as described,

In order to give the driver some degree of protection I would show a waved yellow, this would induce or cause the previous post to show a stationary yellow, and if this was deemed to be wrong, then face the wrath of my Post Chief - Chief Flag or C of C

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Pete LMC

In order to give the driver some degree of protection I would show a waved yellow, this would induce or cause the previous post to show a stationary yellow, and if this was deemed to be wrong, then face the wrath of my Post Chief - Chief Flag or C of C

If you'd done that last Saturday you would have been politely requested to replace the yellow with a green. Why? Read my previous post, & Woolley's excellent post on the subject.

Yellow flags protect nobody. They give warning, not protection.

[gwar]

Just another point of view.....is the drivers point of view.....can the on coming driver,s see a dark coloured car in the dark coloured wall/tyre barriers.
And at high speeds, acceleration of an f1 car, and the vast array of colour changes whilst driving a car through the streets with various posters, advertising banners ect....the drivers view must be very blurred, and has tunnel vision.
He might not nessacerily see flags at the side of his peripheral vision...so with a flaggie waving yellow flag directly in front of the the stricken car (give or take a meter) is directley within the drivers vision....from a longish straight.
Thus begins to slow up and seriously looks for something.
It is only a warning and may aid the driver...to spot things within the tyre,s barriers, debris ect...
And to be fair if any yellows are out around the circuit no one should be setting fast laps....

[Sticker Rub]

Originally Posted by gwar

Thus begins to slow up and seriously looks for something.

...oh, you were being serious