[Multi 21] Ricciardo vs Vettel 2014

[321Go]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Yeah, for sure.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

This will be the dullest teammate battle for many years. Worse than Schumacher/Irvine.

Ricciardo will never out-qualify Vettel, not once. He might beat him in a race occasionally, if Vettel has trouble.

.........................
Oh boy Knowlesy, you've really done it haven't ya?


Only four rounds in so I'm not going to get too excited. But even if Vettel does beat Daniel on points by years end - Daniel has proven what I've always believed anyway.

[Knowlesy]

I wasn't excluding myself. I have said Ricciardo's performance has shocked me multiple times already this season.

[321Go]

Part of the post China race interview with Vettel.

Q: No driver likes to move over for his team mate - and you don’t have a history for doing that. So did you move over for Daniel Ricciardo or did you just run wide?
SV: I did move over. Although initially I did not understand why (I had to) because we were on the same tyres, unlike in Bahrain, and that was also the reason why I double-checked when I got the call from the pit wall. At that point Daniel (Ricciardo) was on a different strategy, and I realised that I had to move over, as there was no point of holding him back with him having a two-stop strategy. At that point in time I was still on a three-stop, which we changed later on, also to a two-stop strategy. Towards the end of the race I also realized that I did not have the pace, which was not really clear to me at that earlier stage, and which you could see in the result of me having a 24 second gap. I was even happy to keep the distance to Nico (Hulkenberg), and not lose another position.

Read the rest of the interview HERE.


For the record, SV was ordered to move over again, this time by Horner. It was not broadcast on the world feed. CH used a very authoritative tone. There was no please in his request.

And during the cool down lap, Vettel wanted an explanation why he was switched to a 2 stop. Horner replied “We switched the cars because at that point we were looking at three-stopping the better route to you to the end of the race on soft - soft.”
“Then as the gaps weren’t opening up that nicely behind, the two stopper actually was the better race for you. That’s how we ended up where we were.”

SV: No reply.

[FAS33]

oops forgot about ur thread 321

[stripedcat]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

How long is Vettel going to be able to keep the toys in the pram while looking at that smiley face?

As long as he needs to get his double diffuser reinstalled on his car.

He does look very agitated over the situation. I do think that Red Bull is going to come to the fore during the mid season - but this time around - he'll have a lot stronger teammate to battle as well. It's going to be a lot more difficult for him to fight for the WDC.

Good show from Riccardio in not letting a few setback unsettle him. He is a formidable teammate for Vettel.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

How long is Vettel going to be able to keep the toys in the pram while looking at that smiley face?

Hmmmm I think a certain percentage got thrown out today!

[Kempi]

Does anyone have any speed trap data for his race?

In the last races I had the impression that VET was still stuck in his high downforce strategy that suited him well when he had a car capable of reaching pole position. This year the car is not able to do that and RIC seems to have better top speeds - either through less down force or through better exits. Either way it enables him to overtake where VET is stuck.

I wonder of VET can overcome this because. His car is damn quick in turns but that does not help if he cannot pass on the straights, something RIC is capable of doing.

[MarkG]

In the Vettel/Webber years, I believe Webber was deigned to be the No2 patsy for the Vettel team, but the 'old boy' Webber in fact proved to be pretty much equal until car and tyre changes, much to Vettel's irritation.
Bit different now with a young Red Bull programme driver in the team.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by MarkG

In the Vettel/Webber years, I believe Webber was deigned to be the No2 patsy for the Vettel team, but the 'old boy' Webber in fact proved to be pretty much equal until car and tyre changes, much to Vettel's irritation.
Bit different now with a young Red Bull programme driver in the team.

I think RB have a problem with the no1 issue, I believe someone important in the team secretly considers Vettel no1 and tells him so, but the rest of the team is left to believe there is no inequality, hence team orders and Vettel's blithe willingness to diss them.

[OZ_HCR32]

It's funny that since Vettel hasn't had a great year that people are going to discredit his 4 x WDCs.

The guy has proven he is special. I think going forward is how does a young guy that has achieved everything so young stay motivated.

Dan is performing as I anticipated and loving watching him deliver. Seb is under performing but dont doubt he will bounce back but isca good test of him to have a car that means he has to rag on it and drive how it wants...not how he wants

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

It's funny that since Vettel hasn't had a great year that people are going to discredit his 4 x WDCs.
................

My views on Vettel started in 2010, Turkey to be exact.

[nobster]

Never liked Vettel, time to put his finger in a place where no daylight is shining...

[djinvicta]

Id pay money to see. no, watch, err no, just pay money to know that...

[Zico]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Id pay money to see. no, watch, err no, just pay money to know that...

Whatever turns you on dude!...

[F1Pete]

All I can say was that it was an F1 Classic moment when Vettel replied "tough luck for him" I am glad that Ricciardo passed him on merit vs being told to move over. I know I read that Horner got on the horn and ordered Vettel to move in the end, but there was nothing Vettel could do to hold him off anyway.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

It's funny that since Vettel hasn't had a great year that people are going to discredit his 4 x WDCs.

The guy has proven he is special. I think going forward is how does a young guy that has achieved everything so young stay motivated.

Dan is performing as I anticipated and loving watching him deliver. Seb is under performing but dont doubt he will bounce back but isca good test of him to have a car that means he has to rag on it and drive how it wants...not how he wants

I know, even long time F1 fans that have been watching for decades have swayed their opinions like a wet fish. Vettels had a couple races where he struggled with tyres compared to Ricciardo, and suddenly he's no longer a top 3 driver and it was all the car design? He trounced Webber for 4 years, 38-9 in wins, 45-14 in poles, 4-0 titles. That's not even. Vettel took 9 consecutive wins last year, Webber was never even close at any of those races.

The funny thing is Ricciardo was only narrowly ahead of Verge last year, mainly because of better qualifying. This year, rookie Kyvat has been mostly ahead of Verge. At China, Ricciardo was just about 1 sec per lap faster than Vettel. Going by this, Kyvat must be more naturally talented than Vettel... right?

Of course not, Vettel will be back. He's had races before where he struggled with setup. So did Schumacher. He'll get back on top of things. Don't forget even at China, before the pit stops Vettel had pulled away 4 seconds from Ricciardo - it wasn't until he put the meds on that he struggled. In some ways he probably should have stayed with 3 stops, but I guess they didn't want to get stuck behind Hulk/Bottas/Perez/Raikkonen in case Vettel didn't have the straight-line speed to pass.

[321Go]

Vettel vs Webber: One was part of the RBR Jnr driver programme, one wasn't.
Kvyat vs Vergne: One is part of the RBR Jnr driver programme, and so is the other.
Ricciardo vs Vettel: One was part of the RBR Jnr driver programme, so was the other.

See a pattern?

There was no way a non-RBR Jnr driver was ever going to get the upper hand of the RBR Jnr driver. Even if he was having the better season of the two. 2010 for example. RBR would be foolish to let Webber win a championship over their vested interest. It was never going to happen.

Now that we have all RBR Jnr drivers in both the RBR teams, no one is getting preferential treatment, so I believe. The results so far has shown that to be the case. I just wish RBR would stop with the team orders, and let them race for it. Sort it out themselves. But RBR have already have seen what Vettel will do if he doesn't get his own way, so can't really blame them.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Kvyat must be more naturally talented than Vettel... right?

Going by what I have read before he entered the RBR Jnr programme, seen throughout his Jnr programme with RBR, and seen so far in F1 - yes he is. Without any doubt. He and Ricciardo are both on par as naturally talented drivers IMO. And a step above Vettel.

[OZ_HCR32]

321Go...I love Webber but he lost some of his pace and didnt like the handling of blown diffusers and later seasons tyres. Some will say it is making excuses...to me it was pretty straight forward reason.

I am amazed people think Vergne was close to Dan last year. If you paid attention Dan was categorically better. Vergne had some good moments and some mech problems. But also drove into people and off the track hurting his car, quali pace etc waaay too often.

You only have to read Markos comments about Dans first RBYDP tests and you see the history, even agaibst Vergne.

Can't remember exact words but Dan got one session in two days of testing and was told to sit with the engineers for thecremaining 1.5 days and watch the others. Jev and others got all the running whilst Dan worked with engineers. Dan thought he had blown it...Marko saw all he needed to see and knew Dan was clearly the most talented there. It took another 1.5 days to work out the pecking order of the others.

But Dans natural pace and ability means how well he understands setup and how well he works with engineers will dictate his success as itvtakes many different ingredients to win a tight season against strong competition

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

It's funny that since Vettel hasn't had a great year that people are going to discredit his 4 x WDCs.

He has my respect, but like all great champions, it is sometimes difficult to like him.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Does anyone have any speed trap data for his race?

In the last races I had the impression that VET was still stuck in his high downforce strategy that suited him well when he had a car capable of reaching pole position. This year the car is not able to do that and RIC seems to have better top speeds - either through less down force or through better exits. Either way it enables him to overtake where VET is stuck.

I wonder of VET can overcome this because. His car is damn quick in turns but that does not help if he cannot pass on the straights, something RIC is capable of doing.

http://www.fia.com/championship/even...ese-grand-prix


Click on: Event and Timing Information

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

http://www.fia.com/championship/even...ese-grand-prix


Click on: Event and Timing Information

That is a pile of really interesting information.
Looking at sector times and intermediate time, highest speeds etc, it confirms a theory I had about the differences between Vettel and Ricciardo, and between Hamilton and Rosberg.

Vettel runs a higher down-force configuration both in the race and in qualifying.
He clicked when they got the diffuser sorted out in earlier years as others have mentioned.
He likes the car to be planted and stable and can attack corners fearlessly but with these cars he runs downforce that is higher than Ricciardo who has higher terminal speeds, because he has less drag and while he may initially launch off the corner slightly slower because of less stability he can increase that speed down a straight because the drag is lower.
He raced Webber well because he is slightly shorter and lighter which may have resulted in a better ballast adjustment and balance, and because he attacked corners with complete confidence in the cars ability to hang in there.
These cars are not like 2013 so he's going to have to adjust to get the most out of the car.
He can, and will do that, but he is going to have to get used to a different car and used to driving differently before he can optimise set up and maximise the car's potential.

Ricciardo however, is already onto it, and Horner realises that , which is why he has referred to Ricciardo as 'top drawer'. He is very much an equal to Seb, much more so than Webber was.

[Kempi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

That is a pile of really interesting information.
Looking at sector times and intermediate time, highest speeds etc, it confirms a theory I had about the differences between Vettel and Ricciardo, and between Hamilton and Rosberg.

Vettel runs a higher down-force configuration both in the race and in qualifying.
He clicked when they got the diffuser sorted out in earlier years as others have mentioned.
He likes the car to be planted and stable and can attack corners fearlessly but with these cars he runs downforce that is higher than Ricciardo who has higher terminal speeds, because he has less drag and while he may initially launch off the corner slightly slower because of less stability he can increase that speed down a straight because the drag is lower.
He raced Webber well because he is slightly shorter and lighter which may have resulted in a better ballast adjustment and balance, and because he attacked corners with complete confidence in the cars ability to hang in there.
These cars are not like 2013 so he's going to have to adjust to get the most out of the car.
He can, and will do that, but he is going to have to get used to a different car and used to driving differently before he can optimise set up and maximise the car's potential.

Ricciardo however, is already onto it, and Horner realises that , which is why he has referred to Ricciardo as 'top drawer'. He is very much an equal to Seb, much more so than Webber was.

I agree. I think VET can sort it out, he showed in Abu Dabhi two years ago that he is capable to run a low downforce set. He just needs to accept that the car does not work like previously anymore let's see how long it takes.

[davyboy]

Daniel Ricciardo has done extremely well this season - arguably the star of the season so far. Does that mean he's better than Vettel ? Of course not... though in time he may well turn out to be. Something isn't right with Vettel this year. It could be the new car regs, it could be something in his personal life [he became a dad over the off season] or something else altogether. Let's not forget that much of Vettel's success was down to a relentless obsessive focus on every minute detail of his work. From the outside it looks like that's no longer there. Whatever the underlying reason for his current ambivalence, he needs to either get on top of it or call it a day.

[Mystery]

I've never really rated Vettel as amongst the very very best in similar machinery. Webber was never a great comparison for me, because Webber has never really beaten the very best either - on the contrary in fact being beaten by, say, Justin Wilson. So the best credit I could ever give Vettel was being very good, on Button's sort of level, but no more yet. On that basis I didn't really know who would be faster out of Seb or Dan.

[OZ_HCR32]

I lile my sportsman to be sportsman. Wecwill never know who burntbwho...and Webber had form with mind games against earlier team mates...but I have never grown to like thevperson Vettel but am rather amazed people can stillbsay he isn't top shelf. How many pole laps nailed...how many great, clean passingives that he executes upon arrival on the tail pipe if other competitors thst means he often makes his strategy work....he is rather vool under pressure.

People talk of his Monza win but his performances in Brazil the same year showed he always had class and has got better with experience.

If Vettel continues to struggle I think it will be largely motivation related. 4 WDCs so young....given up so much of his youth to be the best. Can't rule out some of that focus will waiver...but expect he is still young enough and in face of competition from Dan and more so Hamilton and Sebs stats will buckle down