[Movies] Senna Movie

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by bella

but how much did it shape the man and change him as a person? if it was a bad time for him personally, then it's not something to give up much time to. if you're celebrating a persons life you don't over-dwell on the things that brought them sadness and difficult times.

I think hugely.

I don't think Senna would have reached the heights he reached without Prost.
He was without doubt the best of his era, and we were lucky to have an equally great adversary in Prost, but Senna himself said on the morning of his death on a radio transmission "we miss you Alain"

If Prost hadn't existed, we'd have had a period in F1 very similar to the Schumacher era, a great driver but with no real opposition. He'd have more race wins and WDC's to his name, but would he be seen in the same light?

I haven't seen the film yet, but my memories of the time and anything I've ever read regarding Senna, Prost and Mansell etc painted a picture of this intense individual, a politically astute Prost and a whinging pom.

Very few people at that level are "nice" people in their chosen working enviroment. They would never have succeeded if they were. Senna made mistakes no doubt, but used every available weapon he had.
Prost was the same, and if that meant using his political and French connections, so be it.
Prost played the same game with Mansell at Ferrari and Williams, and won.

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

maybe it's also related to how important that battle was to senna himself - it might be important historically in f1, but how much did it shape the man and change him as a person? if it was a bad time for him personally, then it's not something to give up much time to. if you're celebrating a persons life you don't over-dwell on the things that brought them sadness and difficult times.

I don't think the battle with Prost changed him as a person. He was always going to go head-to-head with whoever was perceived to be the best. He found it frustrating that Prost and Balestre seemed to be in cahoots at times - and I think they were - but Senna had the last word because by the end of '91 he had won three titles and driven Prost out of McLaren.

The frustration came in '92 and '93 when he was having to take the fight to inferior drivers in superior cars and, yes, I do mean Mansell.

It was all supposed to come good in '94 but instead it all went wrong. That was pretty much the thought that the film left me with because I knew what else what was coming.

[Martin Bull]

A remarkable movie - thoroughly enjoyed seeing it. More to the point, my wife ( certainly not a 'petrolhead' and who wondered what all the fuss was about ) found it both fascinating and moving.

Yes - they miss out all your favourite 'bits', the Lotus-Renault turbos never sounded like that, etc etc. But the makers have told a story ( and yes, they've overdone it a bit with Prost ) and it's done effectively ( rather ironic that Le Mans, which was fiction, failed to tell a story whereas Senna, which isn't, does...).

Senna succeeds in showing a general, non-specialist audience just what what so special and unusual about the man and it does it very well indeed.

And for anyone else who was at the Everyman yesterday evening, Nigel Roebuck's remark concerning what haunts him about Imola certainly struck a chord.

[andy666]

Originally Posted by ChrisPage

Saw it last night. Can't wait for extended uncut Blu-Rays now!

I thought the Senna/Prost angle was handled quite well. As a 'Senna' story it let you build up an image of Prost as the vile aggressor, just to throw that into doubt at the end of the film. It clearly showed that the two of them were driven to win and win alone I thought.

I would have liked to see more of the issues between him and Ron Dennis alluded to. Maybe in that extended blu-ray! i could have sat for days watching it and not got bored!

I have to agree i cant wait for the blu ray release aswell , BECAUSE MY DAMN LOCAL SHOWCASE ARE NOT SHOWING IT They have one showing in mid June on a weekday at night I AM AT WORK !!! Worlds biggest middle finger to you Showcase

[Martin Bull]

It's worth noting that the uncut version will only feature the 'talking heads' which were left out of the cinema release - no additional race footage.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Yeh I was so confused when I watched the (without knowing) extended version. I remember being told there were no 'talking heads'.

Also, it wasn't editing amazingly. You'd be half way through a really heated/emotional part, then it'd suddenly cut to silence as the talking head is about to speak. (I make it sound like that guy out of Art Attack...? I bet that's a reference that'll fall flat on its face )

Selby

[Peat]

You managed to shoe-horn Neil Buchanan in a thread about Ayrton Senna....

HERO.

[ECW Dan Selby]

lmfao Don't ask! How did that happen????

Never again!

Selby......

[mountainstar]

I wonder if the film will get wide release in the USA?

I'm sure where I am out in the sticks, it will never end up out here on screen, but you never know.

[stripedcat]

I have just seen the film today at the cinema. A very good documentary film and it did handle the whole Senna/Prost rivalry quite well. I would say that even if you are not a F1 fan you will find it interesting because of the main theme of a man ruled by his heart(Senna) and a man ruled by his brain(Prost).

I have a few nitpicks with the film. I would have liked to have seen more about Senna's amazing skills in rain(1993 Donnington is left out for goodness sake - okay it wasn't as skilled as Estoril 1985). More about his 1985 season - if he had a more reliable car that season he might have won it. Plus although I can see why they focused on his rival Prost, I would have liked to have seen Mansell's and Piquet's relationships with him covered. How for example Piquet was a bit annoyed that Brasil had a new hero, plus how Senna reacted to Piquet's little drift around him at Hungary in 1986. Mansell being not afraid of him and going for moves on in Hungary 1989 and Spain 1991, plus the times they took each other off (Belgium 1987 and Portugal 1989). Perhaps seeing Schumi as his new rival, as well, could have been added? Plus, their tangles in 1992

I know there has to a time limit for the documentary, it just I perhaps felt more could be added, but then I see from a F1 fan's perspective.

Interesting to note that Senna didn't like 'active ride', yet he used it to a big advantage around Detroit in 1987 with a win there. There is no doubt that as skilled as Senna was, that did help him out there. Plus he won at Monaco before that with an 'active ride' car.

I see the old 'traction control' conspiracy gets thrown up again at the end.

[Lennon]

The movie is ok, but i missed a few parts. Donington 93 (that fantastic first lap), Interlagos 91 (first victory driving with only 1st and 6th gear the last 10 laps), Interlagos 93 (when brazilian audience broke the bends and made their way to the track, and Senna appears like a living statue between then), Monaco 92 (holding Mansell at the end), The Piquet overtake on Hungary 86 (that hell of powerslide... amazing), and others.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by [B

GerardWon[/B];2891844]
Sadly my copy of "Aryton Senna: The Hard Edge of Genius" was lost when we moved a while back -- in the mood to re-read that book.

He signed the inside cover of mine at Hockenheim in 1990, needless to say it lives in a safe!

In regards to the film makers showing bias in the Senna/Prost scenario with the benefit of 2 decades worth of stories & opinions to dwell on, it's worth listening to James Hunt's comments only 2 weeks after Suzuka 1990. Until mid 1990, James was one of Senna's biggest critics & never missed an opportunity to reveal his weaknesses. However, by Estoril 1990 his comments had turned 180 degrees & certainly by Adelaide the conviction in his comments were resolute............about both Senna & Prost...........have a listen.

http://youtu.be/kjsNLEykKVA

[herowassenna]

Saw the film Tuesday evening. I undertand a few of the comments about editing and some of the in car footage and gears being out of synch.
Some great unseen footage, Ron Dennis showing video of 1981 Austrian GP where Villeneuve and Jones drive through an escape road without penalty and Senna's reaction to the Ratzenberger crash.

I loved it and found Prost running to the stewards office laughable in 1989, and him talking to another odious human being walking in, Nigel Roebuck. I know, I'm hardly likely to be unbiased about Prost but alot of this film covered that period of F1 as it happened.
I'd forgotten about the 1989 accident between them, and even that year they had ignored Senna's request to put pole position on the left hand side.
Being a Ferrari fan all my life, I remember well, Suzuka 1990, and I wanted Senna to win, I couldn't stand Prost at all. Retribution...

Quite clever of the director/ producer to include an interview with Prost detailing how he'd finish 5th rather than race for 2nd, 3rd or 4th if it meant winning the Championship. Then later, with Senna's famous comment to J Stewart, about if you don't go for a gap, you're no longer a racing driver.

They show an alliance between Balestre and Prost, and people have said it shows Prost in poor light, yet Prost worked his political magic when he arrived at Ferrari, Mansell hated him him after their time together, yet had been friends previously.
Even Williams in 1993, Prost had Renault stating before the championship started how great it would be to have the French driver win. It was obvious that Hill didn't stand a chance.
One scene I thought very unfair because it painted Prost the human being as a very shallow person, was his interview with Selina Scott, where he's flirting and being suggestive, the producers kept in her reply about "does his wife drive"

Saddest part... his sister speaking about the evening before the Imola race, he'd turned to the bible and asked "God" a question. His reply, he was going to give him the greatest gift possible... chills ran down my spine

Originally Posted by GerardWon

Sadly my copy of "Aryton Senna: The Hard Edge of Genius" was lost when we moved a while back -- in the mood to re-read that book.

Not sure if you're interested, I have this book in hardback and paperback, I was going to list the 1st edition on Ebay. Let me know.

[stripedcat]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I loved it and found Prost running to the stewards office laughable in 1989, and him talking to another odious human being walking in, Nigel Roebuck. I

Why do you think that Nigel Roebuck is an 'odious human being'?

[herowassenna]

I have read Autosport since 1983, and he was their Grand Prix correspondent for a number of years.
I found his race reports and especially his "fifth column" which he wrote weekly about something he felt or saw personally on whatever subject he chose somewhat biased depending on his relationship with said driver.
In a book he wrote about Villeneuve, he would often highlight about being his friend. I have no issue with that or the fact he was friends with Prost, but I found his writing to have a leaning towards his friends, almost like a mouthpiece. Alot of time, rather than presenting a balanced opinion he would support their case.
Once again, that's his opinion, but after Senna's death, he was one of those who significantly changed his stance on Senna.
I well remember going to Silverstone in 1994, and what you had amongst the members of the public were countless Senna "fans"
In previous years, Senna had been their target for abuse, I well remember the language that the public threw at Senna after he stopped at Club corner during the 1991 GP, the famous scene where Mansell gave him a lift back.
Yet after his death, all these people were his fans, I found that quite sickening. You saw this human reaction in many journalists too.
It's one thing to judge or write about a drivers ability, quite another to colour it depending on what you think of the man.
I personally thought Senna driving Prost off the road at Suzuka 90 to be quite disgusting. Something that was linked in the film with Jerez, where Donnelly nearly lost his life.
Yet before that race had started, I wanted Senna to beat the Frenchman.

Hearing James Hunt speaking of Prost as a whiner, and him blaming everyone else for his misfortune etc etc was quite enlightening, 2 weeks after Japan...
Yet Roebuck chose to support his "friend" without thought. All people support their friends, I appreciate that, but as a professional journalist, you have to balance your views.
Suzuka 1989 he supported Prost, despite Prost being the first to collide with another to win the championship. Yet all season he'd been criticizing Mclaren, Honda and anybody else when he couldn't beat Senna. Do you remember Balestre forcing Mclaren, Honda etc to publicly apologise and state that they would treat the drivers equally?
Then he told journalists about how he had avoided so many collisions with Senna at the start of races over the previous 2 years. Thereby giving himself a convenient excuse...

Another journalist who I could never stand was Matt Bishop. During the Schumacher/ Ferrari years, he was always insinuating Ferrari weren't completely legal and that they had the full support of the FIA. This was always written in articles where he championed Mclaren. Completely biased, no doubt at some stage Ferrari or Schumacher had said something to him.
When they re-introduced traction control at Spain 2001, Ron Dennis said you'll see who's been using it because they'll go backwards. Matt Bishop wrote an article suggesting the big loser would be Ferrari.
The outcome? 2001 to 2004 saw dominance by Ferrari like no-one has ever witnessed. Mclaren, won only occasionally...

Where does Matt Bishop work now??? Mclaren...

Anyway people, apologies for my rants...

[Martin Bull]

Having just listened first-hand to Mr Roebuck discussing the Senna movie with Jo Ramirez and others in London this week, I feel that perhaps 'odious human being' is rather strong ( or if so, then a large proportion of the human race must be vile beyond description ).

Many sporting journalists are biased in accordance with their relationships with people within the sport ( Remember DSJ ? Mind you, maybe he counts as odious too...).

It's fair to say that many of us - certainly myself included - have altered our perception of Senna as more information has come to light over the years. I well remember thinking at the time that Senna was OTT with the Warwick affair and the 'someone who shouldn't have been there...' comment etc. Time and refelction have made me realise that there was much more to Senna and his life than met the eye.

[chunterer]

I saw it on Wednesday and came away impressed, I also feel that some of the dubbing/editing was a bit slack but then only enthusiasts will notice that sort of thing.

I didn't think the film was too bad on Prost, it showed them getting on before the big duel and then mellowing towards each other afterwards, it all added to the mix for the finale, the sense of invevitability about that fateful weekend.

It reminded me that the FW16, in it's early guise was a total dog and Ayrton had to drive out of his skin to get that car at the front. Damon Hill was 1.5-2 seconds a lap slower on average.....

The film also reminded me just how unhappy Senna was on the Sunday, those in car shots of him on the grid clearly show him to be extremely tired and distressed. The evtns of the previous two days had left him in some shock I think. Awful.

As to the man himself, I used to be a bit anti Senna until the early 90's and then there was that superb A season with McLaren documentary that really showed me his human side and what a generous character he really was..... outside of the car....

The other thing that stood out was how much he seemed to age in the last couple of years, he looked much older than the 34 years he was at the time of his death - his quest for F1 dominance had obviously taken everything out of him - but then he wasn't expecting to have to work as hard when he joined the hitherto dominant Williams team.

[Lennon]

Ferrari weren't completely legal and that they had the full support of the FIA

Well... I do agree. There was some speculation about an illegal chassi (something about the floor). FIA (a.k.a. FIArrari) banished Renault's mass dumpers and 2003 michelin tires used on Williams cars... guess who was in first place? Montoya...

Watch this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asE7AA5_JdM

[chunder]

Having now seen the film, I can offer the opinion that I do feel the movies was obviously heavily biased towards Senna and against Alain.

But you cannot help feeling sorry for Ayrton at times when Balestre was so obviously against him. Was he really that close to Prost? It's hard to say really, I feel that maybe Alain was just a lot, lot better at dealing with that aspect of being in F1 and Ayrton only really got the hang of it after 1990 gradually.

But the fact that Alain was so pictured as the baddie, where was the footage of Ayrton putting him up the wall in Estoril? Which is where it all started on track?

But you cannot fault the way his feelings were portrayed, especially towrdas things like safety and his attitude towards other drivers.

I feel that some of the humour was left out, especially his relationship with Gerhard.

But the way Imola was dealth with was epic, the footage of Rubens and Rolands crashes were shocking and my partner was almost brought to tears with the power of the imagery.

Good film, not a film for the purist, and the twist at the end with Fullerton was somehting I knew already which was a shame! But very good

[Lennon]

Senna was very funny. He is so big, even now, that for someone, anyone, be appointed is his major rival would instantly make the guy a bigger star. When everybody waited for Prost, Mansell or Schumacher... he comes with "Fullerton"... marketing genious.

The lad (fullerton) has already being interviewed after the astonishing revelation...

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by chunder

But you cannot help feeling sorry for Ayrton at times when Balestre was so obviously against him. Was he really that close to Prost?

Yes, they were close.

[bella]

Originally Posted by chunder

Having now seen the film, I can offer the opinion that I do feel the movies was obviously heavily biased towards Senna and against Alain.

well it's called "senna", not "senna and prost", so they're going to show everything from his point of view aren't they...

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by chunder

I feel that some of the humour was left out, especially his relationship with Gerhard.

Like Berger throwing his briefcase out of a helicopter

[Lennon]

Or the day Berger took Senna's passport, cut off his photo and put a naked model in place. Hehehhe.... he almost couldn't travel back to Brazil.

[Greem]

My wife and I saw it on Saturday. She cried her eyes out at the Barrichello / Ratzenberger sequence as she'd never seen that before.

Biggest "ooh" moment though was at Balestre's "the right decision is my decision" comment. There was a large amount of breath taken in at that comment; a lot of folks had obviously never seen it in any way before.

I gave it a great deal of thought after I came out and concluded: Great film. To those accusing it of bias towards Senna, I guess the clue is in the film's title!
To see right at the end of the film, just before the credits rolled, that Prost is a trustee of the Senna Foundation was a gem of a placement. Perfectly timed.