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Old 9 Apr 2012, 20:52 (Ref:3056041)   #51
thommybhoy21
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The 99-01 is a very competetive car at low downforce circuits like symmons plains and poss sandown.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 12:57 (Ref:3057806)   #52
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You obviously have some sort of hidden agenda against Australian F3? Grids all over the world are falling, some are being axed, others are trying to see the storm out. If they all were axed then there would be no open-wheel motor racing. Or maybe that is what you want?
My agenda has never been "hidden". I'm a died-in-the-wool openwheeler fan who's sick and tired of Europhiles who are oblivious to the glaringly obvious fact that F3 has been, is now, and always will be a flop here.

If a formula can't attract a dozen cars to Adelaide and Mt Panorama, then it simply isn't worthy of Australian Drivers' Championship status.

What's needed is a formula with a 'Wow!' factor that can be marketed to race fans to watch them, and companies to sponsor them. Cars that go like sh*t off a shovel in a straight line, get a bit out of shape when they're pushed through a corner, and sound like they're racing instead of droning like an air-strangled F3.

In a nutshell, a modernised and cost-controlled F5000 with a spec chassis and aero kit, the choice of powertrain from the participating V8 Supercar manufacturers, control tyre, etc.

It would entice V8 Supercars teams to get involved, which could only be good thing.

But before any of this can happen, Australia's openwheeler teams - like the touring car teams in the 1990s - need to recognise that a European formula like F3 will never be more than a minor support act here.

Remember that catch-phrase in Field of Dreams? Build it and they will come ...
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 13:08 (Ref:3057816)   #53
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Originally Posted by Morris Dancer View Post
My agenda has never been "hidden". I'm a died-in-the-wool openwheeler fan who's sick and tired of Europhiles who are oblivious to the glaringly obvious fact that F3 has been, is now, and always will be a flop here.

If a formula can't attract a dozen cars to Adelaide and Mt Panorama, then it simply isn't worthy of Australian Drivers' Championship status.

What's needed is a formula with a 'Wow!' factor that can be marketed to race fans to watch them, and companies to sponsor them. Cars that go like sh*t off a shovel in a straight line, get a bit out of shape when they're pushed through a corner, and sound like they're racing instead of droning like an air-strangled F3.

In a nutshell, a modernised and cost-controlled F5000 with a spec chassis and aero kit, the choice of powertrain from the participating V8 Supercar manufacturers, control tyre, etc.

It would entice V8 Supercars teams to get involved, which could only be good thing.

But before any of this can happen, Australia's openwheeler teams - like the touring car teams in the 1990s - need to recognise that a European formula like F3 will never be more than a minor support act here.

Remember that catch-phrase in Field of Dreams? Build it and they will come ...
To be fair, I have said exactly the same thing on the British F3 thread. The problem is, bigger single seaters are even more expensive than F3. Formula Holden (or whatever it was) hardly worked out well in Australia.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 16:43 (Ref:3057916)   #54
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With V8SC and then all the supports plus the GT championship, is there really the money out there for a modern F5000 type car?

I'd like to think there is, but there probably is not.

I think if so, you'd have to decide what the point of it is. Is it designed to be a front line professional series or to bring up new drivers?
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Old 25 Apr 2012, 05:07 (Ref:3065242)   #55
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There's money for anything if it's marketable, which F3 isn't and a cost-controlled bulletproof F5000 is. It just needs someone with the vision and the $$$ to underwrite it.

Obviously it would be a top-line category, so there'd still need to be an intermediate category, but F2000 (preferably with a little bit more grunt) would have to be cheaper than F3 because the FF1600 teams could use a lot of their existing equipment and spares.

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With V8SC and then all the supports plus the GT championship, is there really the money out there for a modern F5000 type car?

I'd like to think there is, but there probably is not.

I think if so, you'd have to decide what the point of it is. Is it designed to be a front line professional series or to bring up new drivers?
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Old 8 May 2012, 06:56 (Ref:3070990)   #56
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Morris, the f5000 glory days are gone, forgett about it, it could.never be as big as it once was, they get big grids for f1 support and tasmin revival, can't see it ever becoming a big championship again!
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Old 9 May 2012, 14:25 (Ref:3071767)   #57
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Instead of just being contrary, like Monty Python's Argument Clinic sketch, explain why a 'big banger' openwheel category like F5000 couldn't work again.

It's time to think big, like the first proponents of F5000 'stock block' engines did in the late 1960s. Back then the alternate proposition was 2-litre racing engines, which would have been even less viable than the fading 2.5-litre Formula Tasman that preceded it.

It was amazing that F5000 lasted as long as it did, considering the two most expensive components - engines and tyres - which were unrestricted, eventually devoured even the big teams' budgets.

F3, like FPacific/Atlantic/Mondial and FHolden before it, has demonstrably failed to capture the public imagination.

The current disastrous situation will only improve when the people involved - especially the existing F3 teams - start thinking about what type of openwheelers can be marketed to Australian motorsport fans, instead of waiting for the next youngster with rich parents to walk through their door.
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Old 10 May 2012, 01:23 (Ref:3072010)   #58
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Hi everyone,

I'm a long time reader first time poster! I wish everyone the happiest of greetings.

I couldnt help myself Morris Dancer, you are full of enthusiasm for your beloved F5000 and that is great to see! You say it should be revived and it would be great to see but in reality its not going to happen. One of the main reasons it wont is start up cost.. If you disagree how would you like to see it reborn? Which engine? Chassis? Formula Holden was I believe also a great class (control engine, control tyres etc) but costs got out of control. Race Teams will always be looking for the edge over a rival regardless of how tight the class is controlled which then drives up budgets..

Shall we Dance??
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Old 13 May 2012, 14:39 (Ref:3073729)   #59
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Hi everyone,

I'm a long time reader first time poster! I wish everyone the happiest of greetings.

I couldnt help myself Morris Dancer, you are full of enthusiasm for your beloved F5000 and that is great to see! You say it should be revived and it would be great to see but in reality its not going to happen. One of the main reasons it wont is start up cost.. If you disagree how would you like to see it reborn? Which engine? Chassis? Formula Holden was I believe also a great class (control engine, control tyres etc) but costs got out of control. Race Teams will always be looking for the edge over a rival regardless of how tight the class is controlled which then drives up budgets..

Shall we Dance??
If you’d taken the trouble to read this thread (it’s only four pages), you’d know that it’s a debate between dreamers who think that F3 in Australia can survive with fields of fewer than 10 cars, and realists who know that it will never be viable, like a string of small and medium-bore openwheel formulas before it.

As one of the latter group, I’ve proposed a cost-controlled big-banger openwheeler formula to succeed F3 as Australia’s premier openwheel category.

It would be essentially a modernised F5000, with cost-control measures to avoid the escalation that destroyed F5000.

These would include homologated chassis from existing series such as SuperLeague Formula, A1GP, Formula Nippon, IRL, with limited aero (eg. single-element wings), V8 Supercar engines (preferably minus the awful explosions on upchanges), ‘bullet-proof’ transmissions, and restricted numbers of control tyres.

The new formula would have a long-term business plan – unlike F3, which CAMS annointed in desperation in 2005 after Formula Holden predictably failed to attract commercial support.

The first step would be for a consortium of teams to contract someone with entrepreneurial skills and contacts to secure a category/series title sponsor (like Repco in the 1970s) to underwrite administration, TV broadcast fees, marketing, and construction of a working prototype car to promote the category at high-profile race meetings.

The category would have a simple but catchy name like ‘Formula V8’, or even ‘Formula V8 Supercar’ if V8 Supercars wanted to be in on the deal, which would certainly give the concept a big shove.

(If V8 Supercars wasn’t interested – or was too scared – to accommodate a big-banger openwheel category, then ‘Formula V8’ could run at stand-alone race meetings alongside a series production touring car category that recreates the ultra-successful Holden-Ford war that dominated Australian motor racing from 1968-71. The only two cars allowed would be the closely matched VE Commodore SS and FG Falcon XR6 Turbo.)

It would probably take 2-3 years for drivers and teams to secure sponsorship and get themselves organised for ‘Formula V8’, but it happened in less time than that in the late 1960s when F5000 replaced the fading 2.5-litre Formula Tasman, so there’s no reason why it couldn’t happen now.

The alternative is to wring our hands at the ever-diminishing F3 fields that are making a mockery of the Australian Drivers’ Championship.

Which do you prefer?
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Old 14 May 2012, 18:48 (Ref:3074505)   #60
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If you’d taken the trouble to read this thread (it’s only four pages), you’d know that it’s a debate between dreamers who think that F3 in Australia can survive with fields of fewer than 10 cars, and realists who know that it will never be viable, like a string of small and medium-bore openwheel formulas before it.

As one of the latter group, I’ve proposed a cost-controlled big-banger openwheeler formula to succeed F3 as Australia’s premier openwheel category.

It would be essentially a modernised F5000, with cost-control measures to avoid the escalation that destroyed F5000.

These would include homologated chassis from existing series such as SuperLeague Formula, A1GP, Formula Nippon, IRL, with limited aero (eg. single-element wings), V8 Supercar engines (preferably minus the awful explosions on upchanges), ‘bullet-proof’ transmissions, and restricted numbers of control tyres.

The new formula would have a long-term business plan – unlike F3, which CAMS annointed in desperation in 2005 after Formula Holden predictably failed to attract commercial support.

The first step would be for a consortium of teams to contract someone with entrepreneurial skills and contacts to secure a category/series title sponsor (like Repco in the 1970s) to underwrite administration, TV broadcast fees, marketing, and construction of a working prototype car to promote the category at high-profile race meetings.

The category would have a simple but catchy name like ‘Formula V8’, or even ‘Formula V8 Supercar’ if V8 Supercars wanted to be in on the deal, which would certainly give the concept a big shove.

(If V8 Supercars wasn’t interested – or was too scared – to accommodate a big-banger openwheel category, then ‘Formula V8’ could run at stand-alone race meetings alongside a series production touring car category that recreates the ultra-successful Holden-Ford war that dominated Australian motor racing from 1968-71. The only two cars allowed would be the closely matched VE Commodore SS and FG Falcon XR6 Turbo.)

It would probably take 2-3 years for drivers and teams to secure sponsorship and get themselves organised for ‘Formula V8’, but it happened in less time than that in the late 1960s when F5000 replaced the fading 2.5-litre Formula Tasman, so there’s no reason why it couldn’t happen now.

The alternative is to wring our hands at the ever-diminishing F3 fields that are making a mockery of the Australian Drivers’ Championship.

Which do you prefer?
Why not Formula A so you don't limit yourself with engines that might not be as accessible or cheap to run in 10-15 years?
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Old 30 May 2012, 00:09 (Ref:3081556)   #61
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Morris D posted
"If you’d taken the trouble to read this thread (it’s only four pages), you’d know that it’s a debate between dreamers who think that F3 in Australia can survive with fields of fewer than 10 cars, and realists who know that it will never be viable, like a string of small and medium-bore openwheel formulas before it."

Firstly if I had of taken the time to read all your posts in this thread I would of got a better picture of what type of person you really are. You seem to have a case of mistaken identity, who are the dreamers and who are the realists? I believe you would be a dreamer, still thinking about your beloved F5000 that DIED 25-30 years ago. You still think F5000 will be successful although you gave examples of big openwheeler categories that were based on what was a tightly controlled set of rules and guess what, they all died within 5 years.. Doesnt give your F5000 much hope does it? If you believe in the F5000 model then put your balls on the line so to speak and put a business model together and gather the investors to make it happen. If you cant do that then you are just another dreamer in the world of motorsport.

The realists seem to be the F3 management and teams.. They are working to a formula that has out lasted F5000, produced more drivers who have made a career out of motorsport that any other class and it also happens to be one of only a few national categories that have increased in grid number this year.

Shall we Dance?
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Old 30 May 2012, 02:56 (Ref:3081591)   #62
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Morris Dancer,

I agree with you, a modernised F5000 based on any engine approved for V8 Supercars should do very well so long as it was promoted as an end product in itself, not a stepping stone.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you, that it is something that could attract V8 teams for anything other than clamouring to be an (or even the) engine supplier.

If it's going to work, it's going to be a centrally controlled and prepared "arrive and drive" series. Palmer has been mentioned and serves as an excellent model for this type of venture.

I'd start with a modest investment though - enough to put say 12 cars on the grid to limit your exposure and see how it develops.



Oh wait......
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Old 30 May 2012, 13:50 (Ref:3081875)   #63
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You guys need to get off of the F5000 moniker because even in Australia, 5.0L V8's don't have much longer to live in the racing world. 15 years max. Like I said, Formula A would be a much better name for the series, as your rules don't get hamstrung by the moniker, and it sounds like a top line formula. Morris, do you think you could get away with a spec spaceframe cockpit to keep the formula cheap and open, or is carbon monocoque the only way to go?
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 10:34 (Ref:3085003)   #64
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You guys need to get off of the F5000 moniker because even in Australia, 5.0L V8's don't have much longer to live in the racing world. 15 years max. Like I said, Formula A would be a much better name for the series, as your rules don't get hamstrung by the moniker, and it sounds like a top line formula. Morris, do you think you could get away with a spec spaceframe cockpit to keep the formula cheap and open, or is carbon monocoque the only way to go?
Yeah, I like this, the room to change specs is good. Having just seen the field for the latest aus fford round, I reckon a formula A, B, even a C should be implemented.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 13:29 (Ref:3085105)   #65
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Let's Dance (please give the personal abuse a rest):
If the "big openwheeler series" you're referring to are A1GP and SuperLeague Formula, they failed because their promoters foolishly tried to re-invent motor racing by trying to market it like soccer/football's World Cup and Champions League. They were also competing against GP2, FR3.5 (and latterly FIA F2 and AutoGP) in an overcrowded European F1 'feeder' formula market.

Australia is different. The fans only like racing cars with stock block V8s, so why not give them what they like?

It isn't up to me or anyone else on this forum to "put their balls on the line" as you so delicately put it. A forum is an online focus group that presents ideas for discussion, not a stock exchange.

The "increase" in F3 numbers is negligible, with fields still hovering around 10. That's way too small for a national championship.


Malfunction junction:
Ideally an independent promoter - or preferably the teams - would run the series, but if not then V8 Supercars might be persuaded to get involved. It would allow the existing teams to spread their infrastructure investments, and provide them with another wholly owned category for their race meetings. A step closer to a monopoly! (shudder)

"Arrive and drive" is a possibility, but it would depend on the series promoter having the funds to pay for everything instead of the teams shouldering some of the cost.


ptclaus98 & formerf1champ:
Any motorsport category would be overjoyed at the prospect of having "15 years max" (or even 10) to run!

Formula A might work (it's handy having A as your country's initial - we already have the A League in socceer/football!), but V8 in the name would be more meaningful to fans here.

Spaceframes wouldn't be acceptable. There are already safety concerns about FF1600s and F2000s racing on tracks with concrete walls (ie. street circuits and ovals).
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Old 9 Jun 2012, 12:35 (Ref:3087977)   #66
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Australia is different. The fans only like racing cars with stock block V8s, so why not give them what they like?
Because fans can be/are lemmings?


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Formula A might work (it's handy having A as your country's initial - we already have the A League in socceer/football!), but V8 in the name would be more meaningful to fans here.
I agree with ptclaus98 to create a "Formula A" series. I think ptclaus was meaning a new set of regs, then scrapping them for something else when/if it became necessary, but keeping the same name for branding type purposes. I suspect "branding" is a priority for you in whatever series carries the Gold Star trophy? That being the case, without knowing how deep is your knowledge of Aus motorsport, not everything V8Supercars does turns to gold, but that's for another thread.

Anyway, where I differentiate from yourself is that I'm not concerned with the look of promtion or branding as a high priority. I'm more concerned with getting a big field of open wheel cars in Australia first, then worrying about the other stuff. Where I differ from ptclaus98 is that, when I say "Formula A" or B, I mean a Formula Libre type class. A MediumOSS and SmallOSS Formula A/B series is the best option atm, I think.

Consider also, instead of yelling out "You have to race F3 to get into F1" I aim at the better amateurs wanting to compete in good cars to win an Australian and/or Tasman series. It's pointless nowadays to promote yourself to aspiring u25y/o. Ideally, Formula A/MOSS would start off as a combination of EuroF2, WSR, Indy Lights etc. Formula B/SOSS would be a combination of fford2000, Star Mazda, FRenault type cars, unless fford can get it's act together, but they won't.

Now clearly each of these cars have their relative strengths and weaknesses and I don't know the specs off by heart, but they don't have to run to specifications. You can also do stuff like allowing a class extra tyres and so forth, remembering you don't have to try and get those classes to run the same lap time, just manage it to be relatively equal after 10+ laps. It'd be better to pick the eyes off other series than to create a new one. It would be more cost effective to buy a second hand car off a dying series overseas, than a brand spanking new car, for a new, unique formula.

With a non-specific term, you can make whatever rules you like and change them every year, if plausible. Looking at V8Supercars, they're in a position where they're trying to attract new manufacturers, but forcing manufacturers to twist and turn something they don't have, into a V8. Almost anything can run in the ATCC, but not in V8. I suspect you already get that. Anyway, firstly, we'll see if you, or anybody else, gets what I'm saying

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Spaceframes wouldn't be acceptable. There are already safety concerns about FF1600s and F2000s racing on tracks with concrete walls (ie. street circuits and ovals).
Well, that's an easy problem to fix. Don't race them on ovals and street circuits.
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Old 12 Jun 2012, 08:56 (Ref:3089414)   #67
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Its a big call to replace the Oz F3 national series with another type of open wheel category especially if ya have to reinvent the car. The fields yet small but are slowly increasing with time. The F304,s are being picked up quickly in the state series with now 5 entered in the series. Yes the pace isnot as quick as the national boys but there are some young up comers who drive very quick in older cars that they can afford as along with the drivers that can afford their toys. Budgets rule and always will.
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Old 13 Jun 2012, 05:59 (Ref:3089924)   #68
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Its a big call to replace the Oz F3 national series with another type of open wheel category especially if ya have to reinvent the car. The fields yet small but are slowly increasing with time.
There's not enough of them to justify having their own National championship, though. Not only that, but there are smaller fields in the Europe. So, where are the new cars going to come from to increase the grid? That's what stuffed up Super Touring in Australia, grids/interest was getting smaller in Europe, so there weren't the hand-me-downs coming here. F3 cars racing is fine in the highest level of open wheeler racing in Australia, however if there's not going to 20+ cars racing, they can't be on their own. Hence, my suggestion of a variation of Formula "not so libre" Libre.
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Old 13 Jun 2012, 11:04 (Ref:3090051)   #69
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FF1C has some really good ideas, however they are ideas that would take a very patient sanctioning body and some VERY patient teams and drivers.
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Old 16 Jun 2012, 02:51 (Ref:3091736)   #70
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FF1C has some really good ideas,
Thanks. Since I've been on 10/10ths, you read about the state open wheel racing (particularly in europe) and what people think is the problem and the magic trick to rejuvenate it. It became more and more clear to me that finding a way to combine them all together would be a good option. That, and changing the context in which/why you would compete in open wheelers in the first place.

Also, I think in lower domestic comps, there has to be less manufacturer involvment. Seriously, only manufacturer could completely wreck fford like ford have. And what BMW's have been allowed to do in open wheelers the last decade should be strongly discouraged.

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however they are ideas that would take a very patient sanctioning body
True, but it may be getting to the point where they'll be forced to. I mean, Formula 3, seriously?

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and some VERY patient teams and drivers.
As soon as I posted it. I thought, that in the Australian Formula A/not quite libre series, of all the competitors that would complain if thier type of car wasn't winning. Inevitable.
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Old 16 Jun 2012, 05:25 (Ref:3091751)   #71
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I also think if potential/competitors know they're not going to get messed around with by admin and/or officials, they're more likely to continue participating or join.
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Old 18 Jun 2012, 03:30 (Ref:3093909)   #72
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On the racing side : John Magro won the Darwin SuperPrix at Hidden Valley...

2012 Aus F3 Standings...
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Old 15 Jul 2012, 10:17 (Ref:3106592)   #73
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Former champion Tim Macrow wins 2 of 3 races at Easten Creek - Winslow extends points lead...

Points after 15 of 21 races...

James Winslow - 196
Chris Gilmour - 152
Jordan Skinner - 90
Steel Guiliana - 89
John Magro - 88
Hayden Cooper - 64
Ben Gersekowski - 58
Tim Macrow - 44
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Old 16 Jul 2012, 04:14 (Ref:3106890)   #74
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And some ripping side by side action in the races too. Macrow was mega under brakes. Timmy's still got it, and to come out after 8 months out of an F3 car, and race a car he's never sat in before and win 2 out of 3 is a great effort. He's not the 2007 F3 champ for nothing.
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