ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110623/ALMS/110629932

Difference being, this seems to say the program is going ahead, instead of being evaluated.

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Something tells me this would be more likely to come to fruition as a Grand-Am project, should it come to fruition.

Something tells you wrong.

[Deleted]

Something tells me that this could be the best thing to happen to ALMS in years. Forget Audi-Penskes, the prospect of two american sportscar giants fighting against each other again is much more mouthwatering.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Something tells me that this could be the best thing to happen to ALMS in years. Forget Audi-Penskes, the prospect of two american sportscar giants fighting against each other again is much more mouthwatering.

Now if we could kick the prototypes out and make this the overall fight...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Now if we could kick the prototypes out and make this the overall fight...

Becasue watching the great GTE field, plus the Vipers, and twenty spec 911's is preferrable to watching the GTE's, a dozen LMP's and handful of spec 911's..........wait, we've been here before!

[Speed-King]

If we could get a dozen LMPs I wouldn't complain...

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

If we could get a dozen LMPs I wouldn't complain...

At Laguna there were 5 LMP1 + 1 LMP2 + 7 LMPC = 13 LMP's!

But seriously I know what you mean.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Something tells you wrong.

I hope; I'm a Mopar guy so this would be awesome. However, I've come to be a little pessimistic when good announcements come too close to the ALMS. I was really excited to see a Lambo run, look where that ended up.

It just seems most manufacturers are going GA (Audi, Ferrari, I think others). That Riley would be engaged to evaluate makes me think it would be fed into GA as well. But I do hope everyone else is right regarding the American on track battles of GM and Chrysler hitting ALMS circuits.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Now if we could kick the prototypes out and make this the overall fight...

That was the very first thing I thought when I read the Viper return rumor.

[Matt]

Bring back IMSA GT.

[The Badger]

I hear ya but , the whole point is to have teams run their chassis in simlar configuration , so they can compete against each other , be it in ALMS , LMS , WEC or any other sanctioned ACO event .

At the end of the day , thats a much better solution , imo .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

That Riley would be engaged to evaluate makes me think it would be fed into GA as well.

Riley built an ACO Vette.
Riley attempted to build both LMP1 and LMP2 ACO cars... but found no buyers.
Riley was contracted to evaluate, but not build any Vipers.

I don't think Riley's involvement means anything with regards to where such a car could race.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I hear ya but , the whole point is to have teams run their chassis in simlar configuration , so they can compete against each other , be it in ALMS , LMS , WEC or any other sanctioned ACO event .

At the end of the day , thats a much better solution , imo .

Who says IMSA GT wouldn't employ similar chassis?

Chris

[JAG]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I hope; I'm a Mopar guy so this would be awesome. However, I've come to be a little pessimistic when good announcements come too close to the ALMS. I was really excited to see a Lambo run, look where that ended up.

It just seems most manufacturers are going GA (Audi, Ferrari, I think others). That Riley would be engaged to evaluate makes me think it would be fed into GA as well. But I do hope everyone else is right regarding the American on track battles of GM and Chrysler hitting ALMS circuits.

The Lamborghini announcement was strange to begin with as the car was apparently based on a GT3 so was never going to cut it without major development.

As for manufactuers going to GA a handful are making customer cars. Over forty examples of the R8 LMS have been sold worldwide and you could rank half a dozen series with more diverse and stronger GT grids than GA will see in 2012.

The Viper made it's name by competing in international events, particularly Le Mans. Even though a GT3 version has raced regularly I would think most people would say the Viper stopped racing when the GTS-R hung up it's boots leaving Corvette to take it's crown.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Who says IMSA GT wouldn't employ similar chassis?

Chris

Who says they would ?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

The Viper made it's name by competing in international events, particularly Le Mans.

It was Dodge's success at Daytona with the Viper, not LeMans, that put a burr under the saddle of some people at Chevrolet and got Chevy back into road racing with the Corvette.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I hear ya but , the whole point is to have teams run their chassis in simlar configuration , so they can compete against each other , be it in ALMS , LMS , WEC or any other sanctioned ACO event .

At the end of the day , thats a much better solution , imo .

For the IMSA not to go belly-up again, what satisfies U.S. racers and spectators is the only thing that really counts.
What the ACO does or wants is of zero importance. Imo.

[The Badger]

Fair enough Bob but , there has never been a more harmonious time for decades , that allows all series to compete on an equal leval .

We had Champion Audi , take the win home for America , Peterson/White Lightening and BAM ..... to name just a few , if the rules wernt simlar , they wouldnt come .

But yes , first it has to appeal to your national audiance .

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Who says they would ?

It would be foolish (suicidal) for IMSA to completely write brand-new rules and to throw out the entire grid of cars they have were the relationship with the ACO to end.

I think IMSA is likely to stick with the ACO, but were they to separate they would likely want to base their new championship on either their current GT class, current LMP1 class, or both. Ask most of these teams to buy all new (perhaps untested) equipment and you're asking for most to walk away.

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

It was Dodge's success at Daytona with the Viper, not LeMans, that put a burr under the saddle of some people at Chevrolet and got Chevy back into road racing with the Corvette.

But the Corvette program was already up and running when Dodge triumphed at Daytona.

Chris

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

But the Corvette program was already up and running when Dodge triumphed at Daytona.

Chris

Yes, but I believe Fellows talked about being able to use that loss against Dodge to convince GM to allow the program to become full time after that.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

It would be foolish (suicidal) for IMSA to completely write brand-new rules and to throw out the entire grid of cars they have were the relationship with the ACO to end.

I think IMSA is likely to stick with the ACO, but were they to separate they would likely want to base their new championship on either their current GT class, current LMP1 class, or both. Ask most of these teams to buy all new (perhaps untested) equipment and you're asking for most to walk away.



But the Corvette program was already up and running when Dodge triumphed at Daytona.

Chris

I agree , but you gotta admit , over the years there has been some foolish decisions made in the USA with respect to national motorsport series ..... CART and Daytona spring to mind .

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I agree , but you gotta admit , over the years there has been some foolish decisions made in the USA with respect to national motorsport series ..... CART and Daytona spring to mind .

CART died with out Indy; the IRL survived only because of Indy and GARRA survives because of Daytona.
Both the 24 hr. race and the fact the France family owns it.
Fans in the U.S. of A. are the only thing between existing and becoming simply a note in the history books, concerning racing in the U.S. .
It is best to cater to that which pays the bills.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I agree , but you gotta admit , over the years there has been some foolish decisions made in the USA with respect to national motorsport series ..... CART and Daytona spring to mind .

Both decisions were ego driven, against an existing competing entity. Both also involved a sort of strange throw back to nostalgia, with little regard to the contemporary market in many ways. How else would you position it?

You can't go home again. A DP was nothing like a GTP from that heyday. Nor was trying to pull a contemporary sprint and midget hotshot from Oklahoma or wherever going to match up with Foyt, the Unsers, Andretti, Sneva, Parnelli, etc. (there may have been a diamond-in-the-rough out there pounding around Terra Haute), but there was not the financial backing of the boys from Brazil, or Japan, etc. So...the kid who can run high on the cush, or low, in some mega horsepower sprinter is aiming for NASCAR, because he can probably carry some backing, lure other backing, and make a ton of cash even if he ends up as a mid-field runner.

Of course, there is peril in targeting a series toward the high tech end, which is reflective of the automobile market, because the technology race is hugely expensive. But, neither Grand Am or IRL offers any sort of opening for the privateer and his buddies welding up and scrounging bits to get a vehicle on the grid, which is something I miss in all the series. Sure, the odd ball, weird duck entries stood no chance at all except for some outrageous fluke, but dang it, I miss them. It is awe inspiring to see Audi, or Penske when they ran the RS, and I do not want to lose that, but dang it, we do need a Joe's Speed Shop/Floyd's BBQ entry too, run on blood, sweat, and dreams. You really don't see that anywhere except in some support series or at local tracks in semi pro or less.

robert, nostalgia boy

[AGD]

If it is true that Chrysler is entering the ALMS with a factory program (and we don't know if that is true yet or if the rumor is complete nonsense), then one must assume that they are pleased with the existing structure of the ALMS or whatever Atherton has told Chrysler that the ALMS will be in a few years. Changing the whole structure of the series when major new programs are coming in and/or major programs are continuing their existing programs may not be a recipe for success. If the existing programs and the ones coming in want change and they all want the same or similar change, well that is a different story. How often is there total agreement though?

Anyway, I think catering to the fans (especially us message board fans) has become the major problem for racing series across the globe. It's kind of like the NBA/MLB/NFL/NHL/whatever. I'm sure every stick and ball team message board is full of fans who think they know more than their team's GM, but ultimately the fans are happy if their team wins even if the team strategy is totally different from the fan's proposed strategies. Listening to fans and their wild message boards ideas has led to insane gimmicky racing. Instead, the series just need to know what makes for good racing and do what needs to be done to achieve it. There's no need to make it overly complicated, but then again, that may just be a message board fan idea that I pulled from my rear end!

Oh, as for why various North American series have struggled, there is no one single reason for any of them. It's usually a string of errors and also bad luck in some cases.

[Speed-King]

Both decisions were ego driven, against an existing competing entity. Both also involved a sort of strange throw back to nostalgia, with little regard to the contemporary market in many ways.

Wrong, the Frances got into sportscar racing first with the USRRC in 1998 when they threw IMSA, which was then under Andy Evans' reign of error, out of Daytona... back then that was probably a good move.

Don Panoz was originally on the USRRC-board and only established ALMS when he left USRRC being unhappy with the way the Panoz GT1-cars were treated vs the prototypes.

Grand Am is just a continuation of USRRC without the co-sanctioning of SCCA.

So it is in this case actually Panoz who established his series against existing competition...

[skycafe]

Good series of observations there AGD! I know I fall into a combo idealistic/nostalgic melange with my own added skewed perspectives and I have expired in age from the target market, so my view wouldn't be valued by the powers that be, nor am I one of them.