ALMS Round 9/ILMC Round 6: Petit Le Mans 29 Sep -1 Oct

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Mal

When was the last time no Audi finished a race it started (P1 class)

If you count privateer entries for the R8 it happened a couple of times - Goh at Suzuka and Oreca at the 'Ring (I think)

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

If you count privateer entries for the R8 it happened a couple of times - Goh at Suzuka and Oreca at the 'Ring (I think)

Spa 1000km 2005 I think, but that was only the one Oreca car.

edit: Kolles at Algarve 2009 too, apparently.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

If you count privateer entries for the R8 it happened a couple of times - Goh at Suzuka and Oreca at the 'Ring (I think)

Hi Graham, did Kolles all the time manage to bring at least one car to the finish?

[Mal]

I guess my question really refers to the works team

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Mal

I guess my question really refers to the works team

The R8C was not really a success, perhaps one the races from that time might meet your criterion.

[Mal]

It looks like Allan though of the same question as according to his Speed column it is the first time in Audi Sports history that both cars haven't finished.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...petit-le-mans/

That is quite a record after 11/12 years of racing

[henk4]

Allan is substantially more moderate than Dr. Ulrich....

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by henk4

The R8C was not really a success, perhaps one the races from that time might meet your criterion.

The R8C only raced once!

[JHamilton]

This was a fantastic event once again. Most memorable for me this year was the track. It looked the best I've ever seen it and they did a terrific job of getting everyone in and around the track (from the inside looking out anyway). You simply can't fit any more people into that facility comfortably. If that is not an argument on why PLM should be in the WEC or a lesson on how to run a WEC event, I don't know what is.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

The R8C only raced once!

yep, I started digging AFTER my post...

[Slowsley]

I will never condone watching nascar, but everyone that is appalled bt Dr. Ulrich's comments immediately following extreme devastation should watch a little nascar.
Also, try not taking your wife's side in an argument/incident she's involved in and see how that goes for ya.
Regardless of who you blame for the crash, I found his comments spot on at the time and as PC as one could expect at such a time. Cut him some slack. You know he'd reword it now if he could.

[Slowsley]

Also, if Frank has data that shows his "line" for 394 laps, I don't even wanna begin to "check it." Funny reply though. And see, I'm not mad.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Slowsley

I will never condone watching nascar, but everyone that is appalled bt Dr. Ulrich's comments immediately following extreme devastation should watch a little nascar.
Also, try not taking your wife's side in an argument/incident she's involved in and see how that goes for ya.

I'd say both of those things are bad for your health! Loved the analogy though!

[MihokS5]

After being at Petit and reading these comments I will share what I saw. I'm not going to get into the whole "who's fault was it" discussion but I will say this-


I am an Audi fan and have worked for Audi for 11+ years. I also TRY and like Peugeot becase they are great competition and I like the 908. I even waited in line and got 2 signed posters from the drivers during the autograph session!


BUT-as much as I try to like them its hard. They are definitely arrogant especially F.Montagny and I witnessed this first hand.
The only fans they had at the podium ceremony were the people that traveled with them! I tried talking to them several times and they are unfriendly. Not to mention they act like you are bothering them.

The way the race ended was even worse and was kind of upsetting to see FM flash his lights in joy after Dumas crashed.

Dear Peugeot,
THERE IS A REASON WHY THE AUDI DRIVER AUTOGRAPH LINE WAS 5 X'S LONGER THAN YOURS AND THATS CRAZY BECAUSE THEY HAVE BARELY WON AGAINST YOU!

The way both teams carry themselves is night and day.

A couple of fans asked Marcel Fassler why Audi didn't have the #2 car block or get tangled up with the remaining Pug. He said that they don't want to win that way and only want to beat them head to head. Someone else said they wished the Pug would crash and he again said thats not how they wish to win.

So thats my 2 cents. I want to like Peugeot and respect them but damn its hard!

And Audi deserves more credit than they are given. This was their first year running the coupe and the thing is down on power compared to the 908. They could have done a lot worse this season and have managed to stay pretty competitive with Peugeot

And lets not forget that Audi is always coming up with new technologies through their sports car program and trying new things.
The 908 is pretty much the same car as the last 4 years and has the most powerful engine they could build to regs. Of course its fast and they know how to run it.
Audi missed with the R15 but they were trying a diferent concept at least. And at least the R18 has innovative ideas and technology that can be developed...

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by henk4

In WRC there are no possibilities for blocking, and team orders can only be issued to such an extent that a driver higher placed in a particular rallye will let the title contender go past to get more points in the overall standings, but that is about it. And whatever you may say about Quesnel's attitude, teams led by him were quite successful

As far as the reputation of Peugeot is concerned, I can't help thinking that this reputation has been largely created on forums like this which appear to have a mostly Audi oriented attendence. Elsewhere somebody produced footage of the Imola Race, and TKs actions (and those at Silverstone) would perfectly match in what in generally alleged to be the normal Peugeot attitude.

I have personally very good contacts with the Peugeot press people (Cecile told my exactly why Pagenaud's first stint at Silverstone was so slow), and that they appear cocky and arrogant, is possibly also due to the fact that few people speak French (I do), and also that many people will put the general label for French people on the Peugeot people too. Do you have any personal experience to substantiate your allegation that the Peugeot people are cocky or arrogant or are you just repeating a "popular" opinion as the truth? The only thing you can say is that they are professional and sometimes people (also us press mosquitos and papparazzi) get in the way. The same goes for the Audi people, if they are working, do not disturb, otherwise they are easy to access (speaking German also helps)

I will not repeat here all the arguments why I think Montagny was not blocking, you can read those in the posts above. I will repeat though what I said first thing after the incident happpened: "Words will be spoken" and that is exactly what happened, possibly much too short after the incident...(Dr. Ulrich?)

I share your analysis that the accident was a "racing incident" and so did race control. So therefore I loathe the suggestions in general that because of the fact that Montagny was involved, it is not quite a racing incident, but again a proof of Peugeot hooliganism. And I can personally sympathise which drivers who get a bit frustrated, when they drive their heart out only to see a substantial advantage that they themselves created, being eroded in one lap, just because of some stupide incident that causes a full course yellow.

What I do hope is that both teams will behave professionally again in Zhuhai, because they need each other to present a thrilling race to the people. If one would pull out, top class endurance racing will be dead, until at least one other factory is going to be willing to spend 100 million dollar plus per year.

In short, I think that it's a popular opinion of the Pug team that, though the occasionally have done actions have reinforced it, is a bit overblown. I know that American fans have been critical of some off-track antics of the Pug drivers at some events, such as their secrecy with the cars and some of their comments and actions at past autograph sessions, and the British and other fans share the same view.

Of course, it has been popular and fashionable though out the years to bash the French, and the US and Britain have been the best/worst at it. You have to wonder if there's an anti-French bias at work, and that every little indiscretion will provide ammunition to fuel that.

I personally hoped that the presence of Wurz, who is a well-liked and respected driver, would give Pug some positive credibility, as well as the fact that the LM debacle aside (for which he apologized for to his credit), Davidson has shown maturity and speed behind the wheel and in the press. Maybe I was hoping for too much with that, as Kristen Stewart make some negative comments last year that caused controversy and she apologized for it, and that got pubic opinion on her side in the end.

But this is a view in racing that's been held for a few years vs a view of an actress that not many people knew or understood until recently, and that, I think, is part of Peugeot's image issue. People tend to respond to things that they don't understand with fear, skeptisim, and, often, hatred and cynicism. And that is how the press is a double edged sword--the British, namely on Top Gear, rubbish Peugeot's cars a lot (though they like those of corporate partner Citroen), and it's grown into public opinion.

Some of Peugeot's actions do justify some of the condensation towards them, but there's a difference between criticism and simple bashing.

To be honest, I'm a bit of a Pug fan, so I try not to condemn them as a group, and I have to admit to being a fan of Wurz, Davidson, Minassian and Sarazain as drivers, and I find tech director Bruno Famin to be one of the most trustworthy sources in the paddock, always being able to ably dance the line as far as letting us know what we "need" to know, but still being open and accessible, and above all else, honest.

Sorry for this long winded analysis, but I do think that even though some of the condemnation of Peugeot is at times deserved, there comes a point where it does get old and overdone, especially if one takes a step back. I don't think that Peugeot should be condemned as a whole for such things, but if one is going to criticize, one should be more choosy of the subject of their ire

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

After being at Petit and reading these comments I will share what I saw. I'm not going to get into the whole "who's fault was it" discussion but I will say this-


I am an Audi fan and have worked for Audi for 11+ years. I also TRY and like Peugeot becase they are great competition and I like the 908. I even waited in line and got 2 signed posters from the drivers during the autograph session!


BUT-as much as I try to like them its hard. They are definitely arrogant especially F.Montagny and I witnessed this first hand.
The only fans they had at the podium ceremony were the people that traveled with them! I tried talking to them several times and they are unfriendly. Not to mention they act like you are bothering them.

The way the race ended was even worse and was kind of upsetting to see FM flash his lights in joy after Dumas crashed.

Dear Peugeot,
THERE IS A REASON WHY THE AUDI DRIVER AUTOGRAPH LINE WAS 5 X'S LONGER THAN YOURS AND THATS CRAZY BECAUSE THEY HAVE BARELY WON AGAINST YOU!

The way both teams carry themselves is night and day.

A couple of fans asked Marcel Fassler why Audi didn't have the #2 car block or get tangled up with the remaining Pug. He said that they don't want to win that way and only want to beat them head to head. Someone else said they wished the Pug would crash and he again said thats not how they wish to win.

So thats my 2 cents. I want to like Peugeot and respect them but damn its hard!

And Audi deserves more credit than they are given. This was their first year running the coupe and the thing is down on power compared to the 908. They could have done a lot worse this season and have managed to stay pretty competitive with Peugeot

And lets not forget that Audi is always coming up with new technologies through their sports car program and trying new things.
The 908 is pretty much the same car as the last 4 years and has the most powerful engine they could build to regs. Of course its fast and they know how to run it.
Audi missed with the R15 but they were trying a diferent concept at least. And at least the R18 has innovative ideas and technology that can be developed...

oohhh...how kind and generous from you trying to like the evil peugeot-team with its old non-innovative car....
please as audi-fanboy and peugeot-basher you are, stick to your guns...suits you much better, don´t try to like somthing thats beyond your mind...

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

oohhh...how kind and generous from you trying to like the evil peugeot-team with its old non-innovative car....
please as audi-fanboy and peugeot-basher you are, stick to your guns...suits you much better, don´t try to like somthing thats beyond your mind...

"Guy" watch your mouth first of all because you don't know me.

Second-I admitted that I was an Audi fan out of the gate and that I also like the 908, so I don't know what the problem is. I obviosuly offended you somehow with my "views" of what I saw, but get over it and don't try to call me out-

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

After being at Petit and reading these comments I will share what I saw. I'm not going to get into the whole "who's fault was it" discussion but I will say this-


I am an Audi fan and have worked for Audi for 11+ years. I also TRY and like Peugeot becase they are great competition and I like the 908. I even waited in line and got 2 signed posters from the drivers during the autograph session!


BUT-as much as I try to like them its hard. They are definitely arrogant especially F.Montagny and I witnessed this first hand.
The only fans they had at the podium ceremony were the people that traveled with them! I tried talking to them several times and they are unfriendly. Not to mention they act like you are bothering them.

The way the race ended was even worse and was kind of upsetting to see FM flash his lights in joy after Dumas crashed.

Dear Peugeot,
THERE IS A REASON WHY THE AUDI DRIVER AUTOGRAPH LINE WAS 5 X'S LONGER THAN YOURS AND THATS CRAZY BECAUSE THEY HAVE BARELY WON AGAINST YOU!

The way both teams carry themselves is night and day.

A couple of fans asked Marcel Fassler why Audi didn't have the #2 car block or get tangled up with the remaining Pug. He said that they don't want to win that way and only want to beat them head to head. Someone else said they wished the Pug would crash and he again said thats not how they wish to win.

So thats my 2 cents. I want to like Peugeot and respect them but damn its hard!

And Audi deserves more credit than they are given. This was their first year running the coupe and the thing is down on power compared to the 908. They could have done a lot worse this season and have managed to stay pretty competitive with Peugeot

And lets not forget that Audi is always coming up with new technologies through their sports car program and trying new things.
The 908 is pretty much the same car as the last 4 years and has the most powerful engine they could build to regs. Of course its fast and they know how to run it.
Audi missed with the R15 but they were trying a diferent concept at least. And at least the R18 has innovative ideas and technology that can be developed...

As I mentioned in my last post, I can understand such views, but we have to use discretion with who and how we assign blame an criticism. When ever Peugeot does something, I don't condemn the whole team--only the driver and who ever made the calls.

I do like that Audi is trying to be inventive, but their "experimenting" this year has cost them at least two races--Spa, where they didn't do enough "real world" on track testing to dial in their cars on a dirty track, and Imola, where new bodywork wasn't tested as well as it could've been, and lacked some parts needed for the normal ALMS/LMS tracks. And in racing, you have to be fast to win, and having even a marginally faster car can help if used properly.

I do still think that some of the drivers are having issues with adapting to the closed car--Allan and TK have had the most issues, and it's not something that can be glossed over due to how many issues both have had. And Allan, Tom and Marcel have had GTP exprerience, but only Fassler has driven a current rules car--one of Rebellion's Lola-Aston Martins in the LMS in '09. Allan and Tom aren't dummies and haven't forgotten how to drive.

Maybe Audi should've bought a Lola and rented some GT cars at some test and use the Lola as a "trainer" in the same way that old fighter planes are used as advanced trainers.

I do hope, like Henk, that Audi and Peugeot can put on a show at Zhuhai, because Audi need to end 2011 on a high note, and both need a race without controversy and to gather momentum for 2012.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As I mentioned in my last post, I can understand such views, but we have to use discretion with who and how we assign blame an criticism. When ever Peugeot does something, I don't condemn the whole team--only the driver and who ever made the calls.

I do like that Audi is trying to be inventive, but their "experimenting" this year has cost them at least two races--Spa, where they didn't do enough "real world" on track testing to dial in their cars on a dirty track, and Imola, where new bodywork wasn't tested as well as it could've been, and lacked some parts needed for the normal ALMS/LMS tracks. And in racing, you have to be fast to win, and having even a marginally faster car can help if used properly.

I do still think that some of the drivers are having issues with adapting to the closed car--Allan and TK have had the most issues, and it's not something that can be glossed over due to how many issues both have had. And Allan, Tom and Marcel have had GTP exprerience, but only Fassler has driven a current rules car--one of Rebellion's Lola-Aston Martins in the LMS in '09. Allan and Tom aren't dummies and haven't forgotten how to drive.

Maybe Audi should've bought a Lola and rented some GT cars at some test and use the Lola as a "trainer" in the same way that old fighter planes are used as advanced trainers.

I do hope, like Henk, that Audi and Peugeot can put on a show at Zhuhai, because Audi need to end 2011 on a high note, and both need a race without controversy and to gather momentum for 2012.

You're right that it's not fair to generalize the entire Pug team. Overall I still like their program-the 908 is gorgeous and sounds amazing. I just can do without some of the sportsmanship issues

[Guy Fawkes]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

"Guy" watch your mouth first of all because you don't know me.

Second-I admitted that I was an Audi fan out of the gate and that I also like the 908, so I don't know what the problem is. I obviosuly offended you somehow with my "views" of what I saw, but get over it and don't try to call me out-

Problem is...I think you are pretending, your post is bashing in disguise and lacks of true reflection...and its arrogant too ( like: I was even leaving the stratosphere of Audi-universe and my made appearance at the rubbish peugeot promo station in order to get some autographs of someone, that nobody likes...)

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes

Problem is...I think you are pretending, your post is bashing in disguise and lacks of true reflection...and its arrogant too ( like: I was even leaving the stratosphere of Audi-universe and my made appearance at the rubbish peugeot promo station in order to get some autographs of someone, that nobody likes...)

Nope. Not pretending-what I typed is what I observed.

And if you read what I was trying to say you would see that I like the 908 and want to like the team-THATS why I waited in line to meet the guys and get a poster. It was race behavior that turned me off

And like I said-you don't know me so stop making assumptions about what my motives are. Go troll for some more Audi fans to bash

[chernaudi]

And as I mentioned, you can't condemn the whole Audi or Peugeot teams for anything that happened at PLM. Condemn Montangy or Quesnel if you want, but don't drag the whole team down with them. Condemn Dumas and whoever designed the cockpit for the R18 if you want, but don't drag the whole team down with them.

I do think that the blame game is getting a bit tiresome and has become every bit as overblown and worn-out as the love triangle being played up in the Twilight Saga films, or, in some's views, the Twilight films themselves. And it's certainly becoming worn out over something that I, several posters here, IMSA, and most commentators have agreed was a racing accident.

I don't want to sound like a pompus arse about this, but as far as the Audi/Pug who did what, this incident is a non issue, and I think that if Franck, Romain, and Herr Ulrich saw all the replays, I think that they'll eventually reach the same conclusion--it's a racing accident, and is nothing more or less than that.

Of course, like with AD, I do think that reporters should never talk to team personnel immediately after an accident or after they get out of the car without them having some time to cool down and digest the information. That I think would help a lot in these situations.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

The only fans they had at the podium ceremony were the people that traveled with them!

I think these fans are most entitled to that spot. Air France did not fly them over for free.....I would not call that arrogance but rewarding the loyal fans.

The size of the autograph queues in Europe for Audi and Peugeot is about the same, slightly depending on where the race is being held. Audi has a much larger presence in the US than Peugeot so I can imagine that more people are interested in seeing their cars and drivers. I personally had no difficulties talking to Montagny, but you may never know what state of mind he is in.

(I am not a Peugeot fanboy, but I drive an estate with a PSA HDI engine, and an Audi R15 and R18 sticker on the rear door)

[gregtummer]

Maybe Peugeot enjoys playing the role of the heels (the bad guys, for all you non-professional wrestling fans)

After all, every good story has a struggle of good vs. evil.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Maybe Peugeot enjoys playing the role of the heels (the bad guys, for all you non-professional wrestling fans)

After all, every good story has a struggle of good vs. evil.

yep, the concept that two parties are good is inconceivable....