USCC (leave your axe outside)

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That's a terrible attitude.

I'm not the one with the **** poor attitude. I am quite tired of hearing the incessant whining and *****ing that is nothing more than stirring the pot. If it is such a burden... MOVE ON!








L.P.

[garcon]

Put the handbags away, ladies...

[Nick Woodbury]

Every day is a battle.

[Rcz]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Rcz: "Maybe someday it will become as popular as NASCAR if not more. And least they don't have spec cars as their top Proto class."

Okay, nobody tell him. he is happy not knowing.

Tell me, are you saying that the DPs and the P2s are all the same car?

The rules may be restrictive, but there are difference between the Protos.

Compared that to indycars.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Tell me, are you saying that the DPs and the P2s are all the same car?

The rules may be restrictive, but there are difference between the Protos.

Compared that to indycars.

Hes probably being faceitous.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Tell me, are you saying that the DPs and the P2s are all the same car?

The rules may be restrictive, but there are difference between the Protos.

Compared that to indycars.

You are correct. Don't pay attention to the pot stirrers.

[Maelochs]

They are all homologated cars, which means teams can't change much but the shock settings.

IndyCar has one chassis, two motors. TUSC has DP (all very similar chassis built to very tight regs--basically identical) and P2 (different chassis built to a more modern ruleset, but most based on the Courage 75.)

Of course, next year IndyCar will get bodykits, so they will be on par with DP.

In neither series are teams really allowed to improve the performance of their cars--except by changing a few suspension settings.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

They are all homologated cars, which means teams can't change much but the shock settings.

IndyCar has one chassis, two motors. TUSC has DP (all very similar chassis built to very tight regs--basically identical) and P2 (different chassis built to a more modern ruleset, but most based on the Courage 75.)

Of course, next year IndyCar will get bodykits, so they will be on par with DP.

In neither series are teams really allowed to improve the performance of their cars--except by changing a few suspension settings.

coyota chassis respect DP technical rules but is very different from dallara and riley... both WTR and AXR use corvette DP, but under the (almost) same bodywork lie two completely different cars.

[Maelochs]

Different how? Aside from which side the driver sits on? most of the chassis and suspension is mandated.

If you know more, please tell me--I admit I don't.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

In neither series are teams really allowed to improve the performance of their cars--except by changing a few suspension settings.

Sure they are, haven't you ever seen a Competition Bulletin from IMSA?

[Rcz]

You also forgot the engines. You have big 5.5l n/a engines verses 3.5l v6 turbos now. There's even a Diesel now.

In indy you can only have a 2.2l v6 turbo as your only option.

Hey, how compatible are the GTE engines compare to the Proto engines? Can you loot a engine from the Ferrari 458 and stick it in a DP or a p2?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

They are all homologated cars, which means teams can't change much but the shock settings.

IndyCar has one chassis, two motors. TUSC has DP (all very similar chassis built to very tight regs--basically identical) and P2 (different chassis built to a more modern ruleset, but most based on the Courage 75.)

Of course, next year IndyCar will get bodykits, so they will be on par with DP.

In neither series are teams really allowed to improve the performance of their cars--except by changing a few suspension settings.

All Sportscars under FIA regulation are homologated! That argument is about as disingenuous as they come.







L.P.

[BullMan]

Ganassi is somehow "IMSA Daytona Prototype Champions" 2010-2013 even though no such ever has or ever will exist.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Rcz

You also forgot the engines. You have big 5.5l n/a engines verses 3.5l v6 turbos now. There's even a Diesel now.

In indy you can only have a 2.2l v6 turbo as your only option.

Hey, how compatible are the GTE engines compare to the Proto engines? Can you loot a engine from the Ferrari 458 and stick it in a DP or a p2?

How sad is it that sports car racing has fallen so far that it's being compared with a spec Indycar series.

[chernaudi]

OK, would everyone be more tolerant of the DPs if they were more like the Mooncraft Shiden, which was, after all, heavily based on a Riley DP chassis, though stylistically quite different?

And just as Riley made a track day car, Mooncraft proposed making a road version, partly to allow Evangelion Racing in Super GT to get a waiver to extend its homologation. But the car (as well as other older cars) had to be retired due to rules changes for 2013, and Evangelion Racing switched to a McLaren MP4-12 GT3.

But the Shiden looked much cooler than a DP did, and some of the LMP2 cars out there now.

[MagVanisher]

@chernaudi

You're right about how the Mooncraft Shiden look compared to DPs. Unfortunately, seems that Riley didn't get any data from Mooncraft, including its design, so that it may apply to their DP construction.

And speaking of Mooncraft, if only they would make another prototype car, let alone a LMP2-type car.

[Accident]

I liked that Shiden thing, I had really hoped DPs would go that direction when changes needed to be made.

It wouldn't stop people from complaining though.

[carbon_titanium]

yes the shiden mooncraft was made using the riley DP1 or DP2 chassis, powered by a toyota engine; surely wasn't as competitive as GT3 cars but it was a great looking car, much better than DP2 ugly and ridiculous prototurtles. Coming back about DP3 chassis, last year more than once you could see destroyed/damaged DP, at road atlanta pedro lamy damaged one of 8star coyote/corvetteDP and during fixing you could clearly see the front structure of the chassis, that was very different from the front structure of the riley; surely suspensions layout are very similiar (if not the same) for all 3 chassis, afterall they use same tyres and the same stressed member on rear (the engine).
About engines, the 458 GTE engine may fit well for an lmp2 but hasn't enough torque to be competitive in a DP (even if in 2011 daytona, the pole was achieved by the flying lizard DP, powered by the L6 4.0 of 997). Two good engines that came in my mind for DP could be the 5.6 V8 that powered the nissan GT1 and the audi derivated 4.0 twin turbo engine that powers the bentley gt3 (maybe destroked to 3.5)

[Maelochs]

Let me make my question more specific: Howe do the different DP chassis differ from one another?(Beyond things like radiator mounting hardware.)


As carbon-titanium notes "surely suspensions layout are very similiar (if not the same) for all 3 chassis" because all the chassis (including the little-used fourth, the Lola) were Designed to perform identically, with No chassis having any advantage. That was the whole idea: different companies would make the chassis, but None would offer any advantage (it's not like this is about Competition, right?)


As far as being homologated, perhaps I should have said "frozen" as No chassis Or engine development is allowed.

And yes, DP allows more than one engine—but it is meaningless because the engines are required to meet specific torque- and power-output curves, so that essentially everyone has the same power plant in different containers.

"Racing" to me involves engineers and mechanics tweaking the cars to get a little extra performance. With DPs, your car can be penalized for performing better. Find a way to make more horsepower? Well, you can't use it. Improve low-end torque? Can't. Fiddle with the bodywork to minimize drag or add downforce? Nope.

P2s are no different than PCs—buy them and race them, but don't change them.

The core philosophy of the Rolex Sports Car Series, carried over into TUSC apparently, is that every car should be the same so only the drivers made a difference. That is what I refer to.

As for how they look, I don't much care. I watched Rolex when it had Gen2s, which from most angles were the most ungainly and poorly proportioned racing cars I have ever seen. To me, appearance is not even secondary.

As for appearance ... in DP basically everyone has an almost identical chassis with different bodywork. In P2 there are two different chassis and two different engines—all sealed and not subject to development.

I suppose some folks like that—after all, in TUSC, any DP can win any given race, unlike through much of ALMS history where Audi did win most races, and if not Audi, Porsche. Still, to me, those days were a Lot better than today.

To me, the most accurate picture of the prevailing philosophy in TUSC came from the end of the Rolex era, when Chevy introduced its "Corvette" bodywork, and it was so inefficient, they had to ... Improve? Heck no. They made the Gen2 cars put a big flat plate on the wing mounts to add enormous drag.

So ... there you have it. From "Racing Improves the Breed" to "Progress Moves us Backwards."

Anyway, I will stop ranting on this subject. No one benefits and nothing is improved, so why make all y'all suffer?

[carbon_titanium]

Actually I said that all 3 chassis surely have the same suspensions layout because 2 main reasons: all DP use the same tyres and all corvette DP have the same 5.5 V8 stressed member.
Anyway DP chassis are terribly old... basicly are steel tubes joint togheter, surely none is better than the other, but as I said, I saw some structural differences between coyote and riley chassis (I'm looking for pics to confirm that). At example this year (at least for daytona, I didn't watch all the races) the WTR (dallara) and gainsco (riley) corvette DP have side exhausts, while ARX not... maybe dallara and riley chassis let to use a different exhausts layout that coyote chassis can't (I must to admit that also SoD has side exhausts, but sincerly I don't know if the team uses still the coyote chassis after the daytona test flying-crash).
About engines, I don't know if there is a development freeze during the season (like f1 ) but is true that only a NA very large or mid displacement twin turbo engine can be used in a DP to be competitive!
actually I suggest that
GM 5.5 has a >600Nm torque peak with a max power output in the range of 540-550hp around 7000rpm (bop max revlimit is 7450rpm)
ford ecoboost surely has >700Nm torque, maybe some hp less than GM engine with a redline around 6000rpm

458 GTE engine, or the old bmw-dinan simply can't reach these torque curves.


I just hope that starting from 2016, DP cars will be built using lmp2 style close monocoques... sincerly is a shame that in 2014 a '93 honda accord has better safety standars than a racing prototype...

[carbon_titanium]

I hope also that dunlop may become the tyres supplier of TUSC in future, basicly dunlop is already the main supplier of lmp2 worldwide, and surely DP will be more competitive using dunlop than continental. Beyond that, dunlop already produces a sort of GT3 compound for gt open cars, so surely also GTD cars will benefit

[Maelochs]

"I don't know if the team uses still the coyote chassis after the daytona test flying-crash)."

AXR and SDR use Coyotes and to good effect. WTR uses a Dallara. Ganassi uses a Riley, which everyone used to say was the only chassis which could win, but with the switch to Ford power and the dominance of Dallara and Coyote ...

And no, the chassis are not identical, but as I note, there were conceived and the rules written to make them Perform identically—the only parts which are allowed to vary are the parts which don't matter.

"About engines, I don't know if there is a development freeze during the season (like f1 ) but is true that only a NA very large or mid displacement twin turbo engine can be used in a DP to be competitive!"

Absolute development freeze permanently in DP and P2. Sealed engines, teams can't do anything. In F1 teams cannot make new parts but they can adjust and tune ... in TUSC, you can press the accelerator.

As for dropping Continental ... the tires are all about money, not performance. Continental likes the publicity, and pays for it, so don't expect Dunlop. Don't expect Michelin.

Rolex used rock-hard Contis for years because they lasted a long time, which lowered costs, and if they crippled absolute performance, relative performance was not a problem—every car was forced to use a low-grip tire so it was fair.

TUSC wants to be self-contained, rather than relevant to the rest of the sports-car world, because it doesn't want to compare performance on a level playing field.

Not saying that is good or bad, but pretty obviously TUSC doesn't care how other people do it anywhere else—TUSC has its plan, and plans to follow through.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Actually I said that all 3 chassis surely have the same suspensions layout because 2 main reasons: all DP use the same tyres and all corvette DP have the same 5.5 V8 stressed member.
Anyway DP chassis are terribly old... basicly are steel tubes joint togheter, surely none is better than the other, but as I said, I saw some structural differences between coyote and riley chassis (I'm looking for pics to confirm that). At example this year (at least for daytona, I didn't watch all the races) the WTR (dallara) and gainsco (riley) corvette DP have side exhausts, while ARX not... maybe dallara and riley chassis let to use a different exhausts layout that coyote chassis can't (I must to admit that also SoD has side exhausts, but sincerly I don't know if the team uses still the coyote chassis after the daytona test flying-crash).
About engines, I don't know if there is a development freeze during the season (like f1 ) but is true that only a NA very large or mid displacement twin turbo engine can be used in a DP to be competitive!
actually I suggest that
GM 5.5 has a >600Nm torque peak with a max power output in the range of 540-550hp around 7000rpm (bop max revlimit is 7450rpm)
ford ecoboost surely has >700Nm torque, maybe some hp less than GM engine with a redline around 6000rpm

458 GTE engine, or the old bmw-dinan simply can't reach these torque curves.


I just hope that starting from 2016, DP cars will be built using lmp2 style close monocoques... sincerly is a shame that in 2014 a '93 honda accord has better safety standars than a racing prototype...

Your last comment is so wrong it's unbelievable.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Matt

Your last comment is so wrong it's unbelievable.

Do you mean about DP safety standards? yeah... ask memo gidley's opinion about the corvette DP he was driving that became "convertible" after the crash with malucelli...
Anyway, repeat, chassis are not identical, but none has ever been better than the others (speaking about DP3 chassis). Ganassi won a lot of championships because is a great team with competitive drivers and a competitive package (riley + bmw). Their daytona wins were built during tests...

[chernaudi]

Here's the deal as far as I can see and remember it.

You have 3-4 chassis manufacturers for DPs, and you have like 3-4 for LMP2.

In the case of the DPs, it's almost like saying that NASCAR stock car chassis are all different. They are, because every NASCAR Sprint Cup team builds their own or buys them from one of the bigger teams. But the rulebook is so spec and tight with what teams can/can't do is that beyond chassis setups, the cars do end up being 99% the same aside from the few team specific tweaks that are allowed.

DPs are homologated to have similar performance, hence the very tight, very spec rule book. The cars aren't exactly the same like an IROC car, but in order to try and keep cost down and keep the cars close in terms of performance, the rules are very tight and closed as to what the chassis makers can do, let alone the teams.

Also, the cars have to be able to universally accept every body kit out there per rules. Which is why the Corvette DP body has been used on Dallara, Coyote, and Riley chassis interchangably. That puts limits on chassis dimensions, for example.

LMP2 cars are less spec--as long as the cars meet the ACO's rules, you can build whatever you want basically. But the homologation for LMP2 is designed to put in place a cost cap. The manufacturers can only have one sprint spec and one LM spec body kit type a season without a waiver. Again, with the tight rules for the DPs, this was intended to keep cost down and encourage close competition.

With both DPs and LMP2s, makers or teams couldn't make any major changes without the permission of the sanctioning body, ie, waivers. And especially in DP, every time a team was allowed to make a change, the BOP often had to be adjusted for other cars.

In both classes, BOP is used to discourage investing a lot of money into modifying the cars, again to try and reduce costs.

And as pointed out, even LMP1 cars are homologated, namely that if a team wants to make changes on the cars, they have to submit their proposals to the ACO/FIA within 15-30 days before the next race weekend. But even at that, the teams are free to do whatever they want within the technical regs as long as they follow those provisos.

But DP and LMP2 have much stricter homologation requirements due to the "cost capped" nature of both formulas.

And if the Shiden was used as the basis for a next generation DP, that would've required significant changes. The greenhouse would've been much modified, the long tail bodywork would've been a big change, and the Shiden had a front and rear diffuser already before the DP's got them.

And I think that there's little doubt though, that if a Shiden was given 500+bhp like the DP's had when it raced, it would've been much faster around a track. Even with 300hp, it was as fast as much more powerful GT3 and GTE cars.