USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Coach Ep]

GM and Ford's P1 efforts would look similar to Mazda in prototype.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

GM and Ford's P1 efforts would look similar to Mazda in prototype.

Why would you say that? It depends on the AIM.

Mazda's prototype effort is a serious LAB experiment. Ambitious but the goal is less winning and more being able to prove what off the shelf parts can do.

A fully funded P1 effort is about WINNING at the top level of research and effort. I have no doubt that either GM or Ford could compete with the likes of Audi, Porsche, Toyota and next year Nissan.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

GM and Ford's P1 efforts would look similar to Mazda in prototype.

Or rather the previous GM LMP attempt if the budgets were kept low

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Why would you say that? It depends on the AIM.

Mazda's prototype effort is a serious LAB experiment. Ambitious but the goal is less winning and more being able to prove what off the shelf parts can do.

A fully funded P1 effort is about WINNING at the top level of research and effort. I have no doubt that either GM or Ford could compete with the likes of Audi, Porsche, Toyota and next year Nissan.

Because they're not able/willing to spend the amount of money necessary to beat Audi/Toyota/Porsche. They might be able to finish ahead of Nissan though but that won't justify any of their expenses in the top category.

I'm aware of the content of the Mazda program, just not sure if TUSC prototype category is the ideal platform to run it in, imo GTD, Conti Challenge or PWC would be better suited for it because of the higher relevance to road cars.

[Deleted]

Agree Mazda should've stick with last year's GX car and run it in CTSCC instead.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Or rather the previous GM LMP attempt if the budgets were kept low

Caddy wasn't as bad as the Mazda is now. Just when they were improving, GM pulled the plug. Their development program was also kind of weird with DAMS racing while the factory team doing mostly testing with Le Mans and the occasional ALMS round or two. I don't think they needed a ton more budget per year, just the patience to stick it out for a bit longer and a better test/race plan. I thought the first generation cars looked pretty cool for the time.

[Speed-King]

That was against a fairly conventional Audi R8 though, a car still beatable on occasion by well run privateer outfits. Against today's spaceship P1s that budget would get them absolutely nowhere.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Yup, totally agree.

The freaking HUGE bill they forced on the DP field really hurt..bad. All in the name of making sure DP's could fight for overall wins...and also because they had to keep them significantly in front of GTLM.

In retrospect it WOULD of been a MUCH better thing to have the DP's fight it out with LMPC or even be their own class but politically that was not going to happen given the whole reason why GM made a DP corvette was so they could fight for overall wins.

It's rather funny really. GM And Ford want a manufacturer supported prototype class but are unwilling to play in LMP1, so they are keen on changing the lower prototype classes to accommodate them (DP and now P2 probably based on what team corvette said recently).

Really, they need to suck it up and step up to LMP1. GM can make a branded looking Corvette prototype in P1, Ford can do a TRUE ecoboost car in P1 if they want. And with those two committed to P1 you could have a P1 class in Tudor in addition to opportunities for WEC races.

GM and Ford are CAPABLE of fielding a legitimate P1 effort, but both of them are spending most of their money on NASCAR. I read an article a few years ago about a big closed door meeting between Ford, GM, Toyota and perhaps Dodge with NASCAR. An un-named executive from one of the manufacturer's reported said that the huge amount of money spent on their NASCAR program was essentially an expensive promotional campaign for PERSONALITIES rather than for anything that was relevant in any way to their street cars. This meeting did result in more brand-unique bodywork and incorporating fuel injection (I think), but there's still nothing in NASCAR that Ford or GM can point to as an example of their engineering prowess. About all they can say is Driver X drives a Ford or Chevy.

I get the impression that it's a case of "that's the way we've always done it" mentality with Ford and GM's management. Ford and GM are both global companies. My uneducated guess is that the ROI would be higher for a Ford or GM overall win at Le Mans, particularly if it showcased a technology made it's way to their street cars. No one outside of the US really cares about the Sprint Cup champion and even NASCAR fans are, for the most part, more excited that their DRIVER won as opposed to Ford, Chevy, or Toyota's engineering excellence. (I'm not sure the old Ford vs. Chevy rivalry is as strong as it once was with NASCAR fans.) My fervent wish is for Ford or GM to get involved with P1 before they decide that racing of any sort isn't worth the money invested. I doubt that will actually happen, though.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That was against a fairly conventional Audi R8 though, a car still beatable on occasion by well run privateer outfits. Against today's spaceship P1s that budget would get them absolutely nowhere.

I agree that the budget these days for a legitimate P1 effort has drastically increased, but I'm still not convinced that it's absolutely necessary to spend exactly as much as Audi to field a competitive car. I don't know the exact budgets for Caddy vs. Audi during those days, but I think it was something along the line of Caddy spending roughly 25 percent of Audi's budget. Panoz spent even less. I'm certainly not suggesting that GM could field a legitimate P1 effort using the same budget as the Caddy program, but I'm not convinced that a P1 effort with a budget of 25 or 30 percent of Audi's CURRENT budget is automatically going to be an embarrassing failure. Ford and GM own wind tunnels and already have aerodynamicist's on payroll. They have engineers already on payroll. There have been many examples of car manufacturers employing their new engineers in F1, sports car and other racing programs. I think that the current WEC/Le Mans P1 rules still have the potential for innovative engineering by a "little guy" to have success. Spending a ton of money doesn't guarantee success, either. (See Toyota's F1 effort.)

I think Ford and GM's mindset on racing programs is highly US-centric, which equals NASCAR. I don't think either of them see the value of a Le Mans win, even if they could do it on 10 percent of Audi's budget. They are going to stick with supporting NASCAR personalities because "that's the way we've always done it", at least as far as corporate memory goes. No one at GM or Ford wants to be the guy to suggest something outside the current box.

[BrentJackson]

To everyone slagging GM and Ford for wanting a prototype presence but not doing so in P1, you can thank the ACO for that, not IMSA. They made the factory prototype rules what they are, and even if one was to completely dismiss the mentality of so many here, what would GM or Ford gain from spending nine figures on a factory P1 effort (and that's what it costs, folks, don't kid yourself otherwise)? Toyota went for it in an attempt at showing that the Tohuku earthquake and tsunami hadn't stopped them from greatness, Audi is defending their admirable Le Mans record and Nissan and Porsche are trying to create an image. None of those factors can be used with Ford or GM, can they? Everything aside, what do they gain?

IMSA cannot justify the expenses of the past. They could when they were the world's premiere sports car series, but the WEC ended that idea along with wrecking the ALMS as we knew it. Both sides can't promote their series to save their lives, thus IMSA's ability to command money is limited, and the rise in costs from this season has caused a massive drop in the number of DPs out there as well as not making any more P2s show up. If they had kept the two cars as separate classes, GM and Ford would by now have bailed and Oak would have already sealed up the title, while the total prototype field would be about six or eight. How is that better than now, unless your whole goal is to kill IMSA in the vain hope of somebody else filling the void (as some here have openly hoped for)?

Lay off the slagging towards Detroit and be glad they want anything to do with IMSA at all. This is a close-knit fan community, which means this crap has actual impacts.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

If they had kept the two cars as separate classes, GM and Ford would by now have bailed and Oak would have already sealed up the title, while the total prototype field would be about six or eight. How is that better than now, unless your whole goal is to kill IMSA in the vain hope of somebody else filling the void (as some here have openly hoped for)?

Situation right now: BoP-favoured DPs few in numbers because of the costly upgrades and BoP war; BoP-ditched LMP2s very few in numbers because they feel unwelcome.

Situation if P2 top class and DP secondary: DP possibly few in numbers because of the lower status; LMP2 healthier than now due overall wins being 100% realistic for these fully ACO spec machines AND there's the upcoming regs coming up for the said formula.

Losing lowly supported "Corvette" bodyworks and Ecoboosts, had that actually happened, doesn't seem like such huge loss

[BrentJackson]

So, you want IMSA to trade the support of the largest automakers in the country in the hope of getting more P2 entries, when they have been next to non-existent in the ALMS for the last four seasons. Like that's really a good idea....

[joeb]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

So, you want IMSA to trade the support of the largest automakers in the country in the hope of getting more P2 entries, when they have been next to non-existent in the ALMS for the last four seasons. Like that's really a good idea....

Ok, but I think the others are noting that pushing the same formula that was pushed in GA won't attract the fans. Body Kits on spec cars isn't what sportscar fans want in general. That sentiment comes out as negativity towards GM because they are the only ones to have supported that formula in the past and are pushing for it in the future.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

So, you want IMSA to trade the support of the largest automakers in the country in the hope of getting more P2 entries, when they have been next to non-existent in the ALMS for the last four seasons. Like that's really a good idea....

LMP2 wasn't able to win overall races in 2013 without P1 hiccups... and they certainly weren't allowed to complete at Daytona. You would think such opportunities would increase interest, especially if there was no reason to modify the cars from ACO spec but just come and race.

Also, if the efforts GM and Ford are putting into DP were worth more than 2000 dollars and change & the products they were campaigning were not universally rejected as gimmicky and pointless in a category not loved by many anyway, you might have a point.

[BrentJackson]

@ Chiana: their support is still useful, and more to the point it's essential to teams like Action Express, Spirit of Daytona and Wayne Taylor Racing. Considering the factory support, if IMSA had tried your idea of relegating the DPs to also rans, the subsequent team owner revolt may well have wrecked any chance of meaningful Prototype grids. My point stands, trading two factory support programs for the hope of more P2 entrants would have been foolish, and the DP teams would never have accepted being stuck with the GT cars. Just as scrapping the LMP2s (which is what many of Grand-Am's diehards wanted) was a foolish endeavor, not speeding up the DPs was never going to happen, and we should all know it. As flawed as it is, it had to be this way.

[joeb]

I have moved the discussion on future regs to the USCC future talk thread:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140114

[lms]

Originally Posted by joeb

That sentiment comes out as negativity towards GM because they are the only ones to have supported that formula in the past and are pushing for it in the future.

there must be other manufacturers as well who are pushing for this deepee bodywork crap. maybe ford or audi?

[Dodge_Swinger]

I agree that TUSC can't currently support P1. My gripe is that Ford and GM are capable of fielding credible P1s, but they've chosen to spend the vast majority of their racing budgets on NASCAR. I'm also disappointed over the proposed significantly spec P2 car as the top class in TUSC.

I'm definitely not convinced that just because Audi spends X amount of money to field their car, everyone that hopes to compete with them has to spend the same amount or more. Non-racing examples where victory definitely did not go to the biggest budget:

1. Soyuz spacecraft vs. Space Shuttle - Soyuz costs a fraction of the Shuttle, fewer fatalities, still operational.

2. Vietnam War - there are many theories about why the Vietnam War ended the way it did, but Vietnam out-spending everyone else is not one of those theories.

Those are just two examples off the top of my head.

I think a decent P1 program could be done with significantly less cost IF, and it's a big IF, an engineering team that can think outside the current box designs an innovative car AND the manufacturer can leverage those costs as part of R&D for future street vehicles. NONE of Ford or GM's NASCAR budget can be justified with regard to developing technology to benefit their street cars; it's only good for advertising and even then, some executives are beginning to question that.

Ford and GM are capable, but they lack the will or the imagination. They continue to stick with supporting NASCAR because that's the way it's been done for the last 30+ years.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

So, you want IMSA to trade the support of the largest automakers in the country in the hope of getting more P2 entries, when they have been next to non-existent in the ALMS for the last four seasons. Like that's really a good idea....

Ford has a LMP2 engine.

GM could easily run one too... it isn't a big deal, and they don't have much invested in DP anyway.

[Maelochs]

"IMSA cannot justify the expenses of the past. They could when they were the world's premiere sports car series"

How about this variation:

"GM and Ford cannot justify the kind of expenses they ran up in the past. They could justify some racing programs when they were the nation's premier sports car manufacturers."

Back when Camaro and Mustang actually meant something, back when Shelby Cobras and modified Corvettes could race—back when either factory sold popular Sports cars, sports car racing made sense.

Right now the only sports car in GM's line is the Vette, which has its own program, and which GM wants to morph into the "Corvette DP" because they Know the name "Corvette" still means "sports car" whereas nothing else in GM or Ford really does.

Yes, I know about the Camaro and the fast Cadillac, and the Mustangs and Cobra-fied Mustangs, and the hot hatches, and all that. Thing is, none of those are really mass-marketed as sports cars. The Pony-Car/Muscle-car age is over, and "performance" is more aimed at mpg than mph—in the minds of most consumers as well as the factories.

The manufacturers know that the people buying new cars generally need to strap in a baby seat and load up with groceries or the kids' sports gear—or they are buying pick-ups. Too many young people see cars as utilities with comfort features, and driving is more a chore and a hassle—a necessary evil—than a source of excitement.

Even the message has changed. Used to be guys wanted cars to project power and youth and competence and competitiveness. Now the same kinds of cars are seen as loud, wasteful, and the drivers tending towards the obnoxious and immature. Having a hopped-up Mustang or a tuned-up Camaro doesn't make one "cool" any more—and those cars cost as much as a cheap college education anyway.

Even if GM or Ford could conceivably find the money to do serious P1 programs (and if it is $30 million or $90 million or $900 million over three years, it is still a grotesque amount of money to spend for companies on the edge of bankruptcy a few years ago) what benefit could they possibly hope to get back?

GM sells performance cars based on luxury and comfort and a cheaper way to gain BMW/Mercedes status. GM and Ford sell a very few serious performance cars to people with a ton of money who are making their decisions based on anything but GM's or Ford's race track activities. And neither company is selling Anything based on its racing prowess, and neither company is likely too—people just don't buy on Monday what won on Sunday because it isn't cool among the young or among the older, and isn't financially feasible for the young or sensible for most of the older ones.

Much as i detest GM's cheap, skin-deep "Corvette DP" program, I understand it and respect that the racing guys are doing whatever they can to try to go racing on the company bankroll. There really isn't a whole lot more the company could spend and get anything even remotely close to reasonable RoI.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"IMSA cannot justify the expenses of the past. They could when they were the world's premiere sports car series"

How about this variation:

"GM and Ford cannot justify the kind of expenses they ran up in the past. They could justify some racing programs when they were the nation's premier sports car manufacturers."

Back when Camaro and Mustang actually meant something, back when Shelby Cobras and modified Corvettes could race—back when either factory sold popular Sports cars, sports car racing made sense.

Right now the only sports car in GM's line is the Vette, which has its own program, and which GM wants to morph into the "Corvette DP" because they Know the name "Corvette" still means "sports car" whereas nothing else in GM or Ford really does.

Yes, I know about the Camaro and the fast Cadillac, and the Mustangs and Cobra-fied Mustangs, and the hot hatches, and all that. Thing is, none of those are really mass-marketed as sports cars. The Pony-Car/Muscle-car age is over, and "performance" is more aimed at mpg than mph—in the minds of most consumers as well as the factories.

The manufacturers know that the people buying new cars generally need to strap in a baby seat and load up with groceries or the kids' sports gear—or they are buying pick-ups. Too many young people see cars as utilities with comfort features, and driving is more a chore and a hassle—a necessary evil—than a source of excitement.

Even the message has changed. Used to be guys wanted cars to project power and youth and competence and competitiveness. Now the same kinds of cars are seen as loud, wasteful, and the drivers tending towards the obnoxious and immature. Having a hopped-up Mustang or a tuned-up Camaro doesn't make one "cool" any more—and those cars cost as much as a cheap college education anyway.

Even if GM or Ford could conceivably find the money to do serious P1 programs (and if it is $30 million or $90 million or $900 million over three years, it is still a grotesque amount of money to spend for companies on the edge of bankruptcy a few years ago) what benefit could they possibly hope to get back?

GM sells performance cars based on luxury and comfort and a cheaper way to gain BMW/Mercedes status. GM and Ford sell a very few serious performance cars to people with a ton of money who are making their decisions based on anything but GM's or Ford's race track activities. And neither company is selling Anything based on its racing prowess, and neither company is likely too—people just don't buy on Monday what won on Sunday because it isn't cool among the young or among the older, and isn't financially feasible for the young or sensible for most of the older ones.

Much as i detest GM's cheap, skin-deep "Corvette DP" program, I understand it and respect that the racing guys are doing whatever they can to try to go racing on the company bankroll. There really isn't a whole lot more the company could spend and get anything even remotely close to reasonable RoI.

So why would IMSA hang on to these two manufacturers like it's their dear life?

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

So why would IMSA hang on to these two manufacturers like it's their dear life?

They're desperate to keep American manufacturers in the mix in an attempt to lure the "Murica" type people into the fanbase.

[Maelochs]

Because both manufacturers are sources of finance and promotion, to whatever degree; because fans do recognize Vipers and Corvettes (in GT); because a series based entirely on privateers is a whole lot less stable than a series with some manufacturer involvement (at least on a seasonal basis—that is, the series can count on a couple really appealing cars being at every race regardless. If Chevy pulled out, the series would lose huge GT fan appeal, and half the P-class would be hamstrung and scrambling and maybe out until the next season.)

And partly because the series is hoping to find a way to milk NASCAR-like money out of the manufacturers in TUSC as well. And, if TUSC got a lot more popular, IMSA could push GM and Ford for more participation financially, promotionally ...

I guess the race-heads at GM, Ford, and even the real racing fans at IMSA (as opposed to the "racing-entertainment business executives") are just like the fans here: ridiculously optimistic that somehow things will change and there will be enough RoI to see American cars competing on every level ...

[Gulf]

This is really great news! The end is near!

Extreme Speed Motorsports has pulled the plug on the remainder of its 2014 TUDOR United SportsCar Championship program, opting to skip next month’s season-ending Petit Le Mans in favor of taking its HPD ARX-03b cars to China for the FIA WEC Six Hours of Shanghai.

The Scott Sharp-owned squad made the announcement Saturday morning at Circuit of The Americas, ahead of today’s Lone Star Le Mans double-header, which sees ESM make its FIA World Endurance Championship debut.

“What an incredible opportunity and next step to take Tequila Patrón and ESM to Shanghai and race against the top P2 cars in the world,” Sharp said. “We’re equally excited, to utilize Tequila Patrón’s investment in motorsports to help further expose their brands to one of their hottest global markets.”

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/e...comment-394576

[Deleted]

On the 365 article it's said they have no plans for 15 other than LM and whatever they do in WEC/Europe, however in DSC article

Originally Posted by Dailysportscar

Ed Brown meanwhile confirmed that ESM do plan to contest the 2015 NAEC: “Daytona and Sebring in particular will be very important for the team to learn all we can about our new cars (the new for 2015 HPD Coupe).

Not that it really matters, NASCAR and IMSA have screwed it up. Which is no new news