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Old 16 Oct 2012, 04:15 (Ref:3152661)   #276
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Originally Posted by banzailap View Post
In response to the 50 000 attendance number...

To put it in perspective, this is about the same level of attendance as the September Super GT race. The May 500km race and the Sprint Cup in November are usually 70 000 or more. Still, this is very good considering that there was not a lot of promotion and this is the first time in ages. There is still fondness and nostalgia in Japan for Group C, and if the WEC plays it well (as they did this week-end), they could get a full house next year, especially now that Toyota won it.
And historical perspective: the old WSC races were better attended than any other race besides 24LM itself. At least according to the attendance figures here: 1982: 86,000, 1987: 78,500, 1988: 81,500.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 05:24 (Ref:3152672)   #277
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TF110, the track is the same width at Turn 10, and through the chicane, as it is everywhere else around the lap, except for the pit straight. The pit straight is 18m wide, and the entire rest of the circuit is a damn generous 15m wide! It only looks narrow because of all those corners!

(People say VIR is narrow, but no, it's fine as-is. Again, it just looks narrow because of the arrangement of the turns. It's 30ft (9m) wide, just like Road America, Road Atlanta, Lime Rock, Mosport, Mid Ohio, Laguna Seca, Sears Point, etc. Even Barber, a "new" circuit, is only 40ft (12m) wide.)

And the braking zone without the chicane will still be enough to work just fine; maybe it will be a 3rd gear corner, instead of 1st. The reduced accordion effect will be helpful as well in reducing congestion, plus that somewhat quicker turn will play more into the strengths of the LMPs, making it easier for them to pass there in that respect. Without the chicane, that designated braking zone will still be a heck of a lot more effective than the one designated for the last corner. Remember, kinetic energy goes up with the square of the velocity, so going from 90-mph down to 60-mph is nowhere near the energy reduction of going from 150-mph down to 120-mph, even though both are a reduction of 30-mph.

I've seen the crowd figures too, and in the Group C era, ~80,000 for the event was normal. Here's another good place for sportscar information.
http://wsrp.ic.cz/

Greg, that's an interesting thought about the length of F1 races. That leaves me with a question though. Why wasn't this thing going on with the tracks back in 2002-2005, when the races were faster, because of horsepower, and the cars weren't carrying so much fuel?

Last edited by Purist; 16 Oct 2012 at 05:36.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 05:55 (Ref:3152678)   #278
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Greg, that's an interesting thought about the length of F1 races. That leaves me with a question though. Why wasn't this thing going on with the tracks back in 2002-2005, when the races were faster, because of horsepower, and the cars weren't carrying so much fuel?
It was going on though. You had China, Bahrain, the neutered Austria, the neutered Imola, etc.

I remember a few races at Monza ending in 1 hour 10 minutes. That is over way too fast. But what F1 has been doing is instead of building another classic like Monza and adding an extra 10 laps, they'll build another Monza and then add about another 3 extra chicanes on top of it to get the cars to complete ~190 miles in 1 hour 30 min. Whereas the better solution is to built a roadcourse with a good natural flow to it and add extra miles to the race if necessary.

To all the NASCAR fans, that would be like NASCAR saying "Okay, the Loudon race is 300 miles, therefore regardless of the track size, speed, or banking, every race will be 300 miles." Then Daytona and Talladega would be 300 miles and over with way too fast. So instead of moving them to 500 miles, they run a chicane on the backstretch and on the frontstretch to slow them down and make the race last in the time window even though it completely ruins the track.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 06:32 (Ref:3152686)   #279
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TF110, the track is the same width at Turn 10, and through the chicane, as it is everywhere else around the lap, except for the pit straight. The pit straight is 18m wide, and the entire rest of the circuit is a damn generous 15m wide! It only looks narrow because of all those corners!

(People say VIR is narrow, but no, it's fine as-is. Again, it just looks narrow because of the arrangement of the turns. It's 30ft (9m) wide, just like Road America, Road Atlanta, Lime Rock, Mosport, Mid Ohio, Laguna Seca, Sears Point, etc. Even Barber, a "new" circuit, is only 40ft (12m) wide.)

And the braking zone without the chicane will still be enough to work just fine; maybe it will be a 3rd gear corner, instead of 1st. The reduced accordion effect will be helpful as well in reducing congestion, plus that somewhat quicker turn will play more into the strengths of the LMPs, making it easier for them to pass there in that respect. Without the chicane, that designated braking zone will still be a heck of a lot more effective than the one designated for the last corner. Remember, kinetic energy goes up with the square of the velocity, so going from 90-mph down to 60-mph is nowhere near the energy reduction of going from 150-mph down to 120-mph, even though both are a reduction of 30-mph.

I've seen the crowd figures too, and in the Group C era, ~80,000 for the event was normal. Here's another good place for sportscar information.
http://wsrp.ic.cz/

Greg, that's an interesting thought about the length of F1 races. That leaves me with a question though. Why wasn't this thing going on with the tracks back in 2002-2005, when the races were faster, because of horsepower, and the cars weren't carrying so much fuel?
Theres no point in arguing about it. The angle of that turn even without the chicane isn't very friendly. I'd rather they kept the chicane and make it less sharp of an angle. It's almost a 180 degree turn right now. I didn't say it was narrow in general, but narrow in terms of the width of the straight, it is. Regardless of it being such and such meters wide, its still a hard right turn where a racing line will form. Seemed like there were incidents at other parts of the track, not just there. Maybe it's magnified because of the Audi's, but it didn't seem particularly bad. May as well keep it as it is, which they will more than likely.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 06:40 (Ref:3152689)   #280
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gregtummer is bob on, all the new F1 tracks are all roughly the same length and speed, so all F1 races last about the same amount of time, and the same layout to contrive overtaking opportunities. They all have a longish pit straight, then somewhere a really long straight with a hairpin, or double hairpin, at each end to allow slipstreaming and remove the problem of following cars through fast corners.

The WEC could easily overcome this by not using them, or only using them where they have to i.e for a race in the Middle East and China. Instead they are basing the series around them. Granted the loss of Sebring hasn't helped in that regard. Its a shame about Fuji because its in as nice a location as I'd imagine any track is but the corners are dull, especially when compared to Suzuka or even Autopolis.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 07:10 (Ref:3152696)   #281
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Hey, it's not Toyota's fault! Or is it? Your calculations are great, but lets not forget the huge mistakes that Lapierre made in traffic as well. That took plenty of time away from him. And he potentially lost a good deal of that lead that Toyota would have needed to win.
I do not understand why you are so critical about Lapierre. Judging from the average lap time during his double stint (excluding in and out laps), he was a bit faster than Wurz:
  • Wurz: 1:30.328
  • Lapierre: 1:30.227
  • Nakajima: 1:29.853
Nakajima was the star in the Toyota. The other drivers could not match his speed.

Furthermore, Treluyer showed that a race can get ruined by being too aggressive in traffic. Lapierre probably did not want to repeat his Bahrain mistake.

Last edited by gwyllion; 16 Oct 2012 at 07:17.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 07:10 (Ref:3152697)   #282
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Some of the turns are dull, but I don't think all are too bad. 100R is a great corner, really high speed and I really like turn 14 and 15, that's a tough one to get right.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 07:16 (Ref:3152698)   #283
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
I do not understand why you are so critical about Lapierre. Judging from the average lap time during his double stint (excluding in and out laps), he was a bit faster than Wurz:
  • Wurz: 1:30.328
  • Lapierre: 1:30.227
  • Nakajima: 1:29.853
Not being critical. His average lap times show his pace, but he did cost himself a lot of time with the two big mistakes he made. That's the only point I was making. Without those mistakes his average stint time would have been even better! He made a bold move on the Audi that didn't work and drove off track. This after he made a mistake in traffic that gave said Audi the lead. You said you missed the race, if you get the chance to watch it you'll see what I mean. That was costly even the commentating was elaborating how that may cost them.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 10:42 (Ref:3152773)   #284
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In http://trussers.blogspot.com/2012/10...es-clever.html Paul Truswell explains how, with a clever strategy decision of Howden Haynes, the #2 Audi was able to finish on the lead lap, even though the car was slower than the #1 Audi and the Toyota.

In the interviews after the race, the crew of the #2 Audi explained that they suffered from tyre pickup in the beginning and from oversteer because of a damaged nose at the end of the race.
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 13:07 (Ref:3152850)   #285
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Thank's for the last posts, good points. My impression of watching the race relating to the layout of the Fuji race track was, done again an patchwork pieced together Tilke track. And indeed I've missed something like a nutural flow. Simply it's just annother Tilke ruined track, obviously he is not a fan of roadcourses with a good natural flow.

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Old 16 Oct 2012, 14:47 (Ref:3152905)   #286
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In http://trussers.blogspot.com/2012/10...es-clever.html Paul Truswell explains how, with a clever strategy decision of Howden Haynes, the #2 Audi was able to finish on the lead lap, even though the car was slower than the #1 Audi and the Toyota.

In the interviews after the race, the crew of the #2 Audi explained that they suffered from tyre pickup in the beginning and from oversteer because of a damaged nose at the end of the race.
Makes me wonder if they shouldn't keep H on the #2 permanently again
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Old 16 Oct 2012, 20:28 (Ref:3153050)   #287
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Great that Toyota and Nakajima won in Japan.

And I think that chicane was built only to create one more overtaking spot for F1, if Tilke would've wanted to increase lap time, for sure he would've had other ways to do it. But for sure WEC could bypass it.
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Old 17 Oct 2012, 07:47 (Ref:3153219)   #288
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Gulf Racing Middle East evolved almost home at Fuji Speedway at the seventh meeting of the World Endurance Championship, with the presence of local Keiko Ihara the crew of the Lola B12/80 Gulf colors. At the end of a race conducted smoothly, the # 29 Giroix / Ihara / Deletraz finished the doors of the Top 5 in the LMP2 class. "We are continuing our momentum in Bahrain" explains Fabien Giroix. "The team has done a good job and the car worked well. It took exploit the new tires on the whole we had a relay basis. Our pace has allowed us to follow the train of ORECA 03/Signatech. '



The only warning was meeting a contact with another competitor: "We had to change the back cover, but overall our Japanese meeting went well with beautiful passages of arms with the Lola / Lotus LMP2. '



The star of the weekend was undoubtedly Keiko Ihara: "Keiko rolled to his audience and faced a lot of stress. She was in the middle and at the times were good gentlemen. She continues the discovery of a new discipline. '



Gulf Racing Middle East now has eyes on Shanghai: "We hope to finish the season on a high note, but our performance Fuji bodes well for the future. It seems that a solution for Lola is about to be found. Our concerns related to future developments, but the problem should be resolved shortly. We can work calmly to strengthening the team in 2013. For us, this first season is quite positive with the discovery of a new car, a new category and ultimately completely new environment for us. It took time for implementation, but we will continue to organize ourselves for the next season. '



Interview by Laurent Mercier

This google translate , its just wrong !!!
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Old 17 Oct 2012, 09:06 (Ref:3153266)   #289
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Even Hindaugh was pleasantly surprised at the consistency of the Gulf Middle East Lolas, and they are improving steadily like Lotus-Lola-Judd.
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Old 17 Oct 2012, 14:48 (Ref:3153367)   #290
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Even Hindaugh was pleasantly surprised at the consistency of the Gulf Middle East Lolas, and they are improving steadily like Lotus-Lola-Judd.
There was only one !!!
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Old 17 Oct 2012, 16:00 (Ref:3153392)   #291
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This google translate , its just wrong !!!
What? You mean you didn't notice the beautiful passages of arms? Shame on you Mr B!
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Old 17 Oct 2012, 16:16 (Ref:3153404)   #292
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There was only one !!!
Oh yeah! Damn! I was still thinking Le Mans Gulf Racing. What happened to the other one? Was it totaled? or just used as a parts bin?
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Old 17 Oct 2012, 18:54 (Ref:3153491)   #293
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Oh yeah! Damn! I was still thinking Le Mans Gulf Racing. What happened to the other one? Was it totaled? or just used as a parts bin?
Parts bin, and cannot race due to two broken legs among the team's drivers (Frederic Fatien at Spa and Stefan Johansson in a Ferrari crash in China some time in summer).
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Old 18 Oct 2012, 05:12 (Ref:3153689)   #294
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I checked a few things from the WEC race, and the 2008 Japanese Grand Prix.

Removing the chicane ought to be beneficial. There are very acute corners at Fuji, other than the entry to the chicane, but they are less accident-prone for some key reasons. Very simply, neither of the two hairpins (Turns 1 and 6/7) have pronounced turns back in the opposite direction immediately afterward. Basically, you can't go as deep into them, or into them on a line as far to the inside, or else you will go off the track. With the chicane, if you run wide on the exit of the first right-hander (as long as it's not way too wide), you just keep going, because you're on the inside for the left-hander just after it, so nobody can take advantage of your "mistake". Removing the chicane means you can't make those same dive-bomb maneuvers at Turn 10 anymore, and still expect to have any hope of staying on the track.

Without the chicane, Turn 10 will still require significant braking from all classes. Dunlop would then be rather like the Coca Cola Curve (Turn 4), which also has an acute apex. The un-chicaned Turn 10 will just be somewhat slower than Turn 4, and to the right instead of the left. We saw passing at Coca Cola in the WEC race, and certainly see it, even within the same class, in the Super GT races.

I might add that taking out the chicane would make Turn 13 a noticeable braking zone, and would probably reduce the desperation factor for LMP drivers trying to pass GTs before that final sequence of corners. The LMPs will have more of a speed advantage coming in to, through, and out of Turn 10, as opposed to negotiating the chicane, thus making those last minute jukes into Turn 13 less necessary to pull off a pass. The increased speed going into Turn 13 will also make potential dive-bomb maneuvers there less advantageous/less likely (again, no sharp turn immediately back in the other direction to save you if you overcook it). Finally, that harder braking zone into Turn 13 plays even more strongly into the LMP braking advantage over the GTs, allowing them to more readily slip by without incident.

Under the right conditions/at the right circuit, the Turn 13-16 complex could be rather nice, but this is Fuji, and I have no intention of excusing what was done to 300R, or really, to the entire circuit. The 100R corner is still nice, but was probably more challenging/interesting in its previous form. Now, it's a fairly constant radius curve. It used to be decreasing-radius for the first part, and then opened out after that, while also have a higher entry speed. (Strangely enough, the run out of 100R to Hair Pin used to be longer, and Hair Pin used to be even tighter. It just seems odd to do that if F1's aim was to create more and better examples of exactly that kind of overtaking zone.)
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Old 18 Oct 2012, 08:48 (Ref:3153743)   #295
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What? You mean you didn't notice the beautiful passages of arms? Shame on you Mr B!

Yeah , I know ..... that got a giggle too .
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Old 18 Oct 2012, 08:49 (Ref:3153744)   #296
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Parts bin, and cannot race due to two broken legs among the team's drivers (Frederic Fatien at Spa and Stefan Johansson in a Ferrari crash in China some time in summer).
Both of them broke their legs ?

How unlucky can one team get for a first year . They have set a new benchmark as far as luck goes .
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