Sports car racing and Audi

[Courage C36]

" Audi - remember what the Audi/Porsche/Penske consortium did to CanAm racing in the 70's? Guess what. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Just as the 917 program devoured CanAm, driving away fans and team owners alike, the Audi R8's are a corrosion upon the battery terminals of sports car racing.

Too few races - There's Sebring, then nothing until about a month after Le Mans. Seriously guys, this flat out sucks.

Compare it to the 25-30 strong Daytona Prototype fields in the Grand-Am Series, all of which put on a helluva fight with each other, many races decided on the last lap, and you see that ALMS is in serious trouble. You can't rely on an Audi and two Lolas to be the stars of your whole racing series."




" Audi has forced factories OUT of LMP competition, because the money it would take to dethrone Audi in a short enough time to be relevant to affecting sales is comparable to what it costs to field a decent F1 team; ergo Jaguar, Toyota, Mercedes, and BMW staying put in F1 and not even considering continuing their LMP programs.

What you have in LMP competition now is a bunch of privateer teams coming out of the big chassis shops and boutique auto manufacturers (Lola, Riley & Scott, Dallara, Dome, Panoz, Lister) getting crushed by one over funded factory effort with supporting non-works teams.

Sorry, but the last time we had that, we called it Can-Am. In fact, it was Audi-Porsche stomping on all of the privateer chassis shop teams like Lola, Shadow, and McLaren with their Porsche 917-30.

I cannot stand the Audis and I heartily dislike what they've done to LMP racing. The factories that are becoming interested in competing are being forced to exploit rulebook loopholes (the Maserati effort in the defunct GTP category) or the companies are going to the GTS category where close competition and showroom similarity are stronger selling points.

I'm glad that the Dyson Lolas with their Judd power are such a threat to the Auto Union panzers. *** Audi and the Porsche coattails they rode in on. "


i saw this posted by Layla's Keeper on another fourm and agree

[Audi R8R]

I suppose Audi have driven manufacturers out of sportscar racing.. I mean, GM wouldn't have entered the Corvette to that extent had it not been for Audi's lead.
Porsche are creating (and have secretly tested) a prototype in the last six months.
Ferrari and Porsche have works (assisted) entries in sportscar racing around the world. (Let us not forget, there is racing elsewhere than in the US!)
Lamborghini, Aston Martin, TVR, Morgan...
Okay, they aren't prototyps, but there is involvement, and that will only continue and develop.

As for watching a bunch of silhouettes that can't outdrag a Porsche GT3-RS in a straight (restrictor balanced) fight, then right, that's real sportscar racing...!

I want my prototypes to be fast, faster than a GT car.

And there actually appear to be 'fans' turning up to watch the Audi's and the Lola's in the ALMS, on BOTH SIDES of the Atlantic.

And Audi have said they'll return next year with another car. I find it better to have some manufacturers that aren't going to F1 or other single seaters and staying the right sort of clases!

[cybersdorf]

Audi isn't to blame for the state the sport is in these days, because Audi just approached the R8 project in a professional manner - appointed the necessary funds, laid out a plan, and saw it through. Unfortunately, no other factory has so far been willing or able (remember the Caddy fiasco?) to do the same. The R8 has given Audi a good return on its investment but, surely any other professionally run works racing department would have been able to produce an equally successful car? - They didn't try. I don't see how this is Audi's fault.

Consider this: what Audi has done to prototype racing is singlehandedly keeping it alive over the last few years. They are pouring money into all aspects of the sport - pay for "privateer" (yeah right) teams on two continents, pay for a support series to the LMES, sponsor the ALMS, pay for event PR in ALMS and LMES - money they might as well spend on F1 like everyone else. It is not Audi's fault that what there was in terms of competition back in 1999 (Merc, BMW, Toyota, Nissan) was gone, or about to leave, in 2000.

If Audi pulls the plug now, LMP racing is dead. Not a nice thought but, unfortunately this is they way things present themselves at the moment. Other works projects are not forthcoming, are they?

The Audi marque isn't close to my heart (in fact, no German marque is) but the statements reposter here are imho just an anti-Audi rant. the real problem seems to be that the initial poster "cannot stand the Audis".

[marcush.]

Honestly,I cannot see the point here.
Dyson has only to blame itself for not winning more often.They have the speed and even the engine last the distance if it isn´t a 24h affair..but they have the Konrad syndrome:we are unlucky ,this car fails again and again...starter ,alternator ,misfires ,non start,fire
due to failed oillines...sorry this is NOT bad luck or it is bad luck in case you solely rely on luck when you go out competing..wich is not the audi approach.
If you look at the Spa race last weekend one has to learn,that not the speed of the car makes you win in endurance Racing but Run run run and no hickups or less then the others.Easily said I know.

[hindy]

Audi has killed the sport in the same way that the Porsche 962 and 956 did.... come on that was one of the great times in Sportscar racing...Porsche had their favourites then and it was common to see the men in the Porsche overalls passing out the chips or other parts when the 'blessed' team had fallen out...

Just wish there were more Audi teams true privateer or otherwise... Half a dozen R8s battling at Le Mans...yes please...

And if Audi is holding so many other manufacturers back how come no-one has built a car to the new regs. As soon as that happens the R8 will be dead as the rulesmakers will legislate it out of existance (or at least render it un-competive!).

Sportscar fans give thanks for Audi for without Audi there would have been no Bentley (Audi money and an Audi company) no Cosworth (Audi money and an Audi company) and no Lamborgini (are you getting the picture!)..and I'm not talking about the racing efforts of these companies... I'm talking about the whole shebang!

Then there;s FSI technology - and even when the new race car come out which will be instrumental in the USA finally giving up 8mpg SUV petrol engines and trading out to high tech diesel - that still won't be enough for some people!



jh

[marcush.]

the Zytek clearly has what it takes to blow away the R8s in their current state.don´t forget the works effort was a bit short on funds,and Team Creation with their DBA are a really small team compared to Velocx..
Speaking of luck both teams featured very high on the list with the bad luck this year...imo

[iucrmh]

I think that something that people always seem to miss is the fact that Audi have stuck around in Sports Cars after winning Le Mans. Look at the other manufacturers.
BMW, ran at Le Mans twice, won and left to F1. Toyota, ran at Le Mans twice, nearly won and left to F1. Porsche, ran three years at Le Mans with works GT1 cars, won, left and built the Cayenne. Nissan, ran three years at Le Mans, didn't win and left. Mercedes, two years and left (which they would have done if you'd won anyway - probably). Bentley, three year program to win at Le Mans, then left.

At least Audi have been around for 6 years and counting. However, they do seem to keep a firmer control over their "customer cars", than Porsche did with the phlethera(sp?) of 956/962 that were sold.

[TerryC]

Originally posted by iucrmh
Audi have been around for 6 years and counting. However, they do seem to keep a firmer control over their "customer cars",...

How and in what way?

[LC2guy]

Porsche sold the 956 / 962 to anyone who wanted one and could afford it, whereas Audi only give cars to Audi importers in certain countries. I don't dislike Audi, i just wish they had better competition, and as that could prove too expensive in todays economic climate, bring on the new rules. Nasamax and Courage LMP2 were both impressive at Le Mans so the spectacle won't get any worse IMHO.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by cybersdorf


The Audi marque isn't close to my heart (in fact, no German marque is) but the statements reposter here are imho just an anti-Audi rant. the real problem seems to be that the initial poster "cannot stand the Audis".

I'm exactly with Cy here. Everyone knows I'm not exactly an Audi fan. Much the same as the present disatisfaction with TGF and Ferrari in Formula 1. Does Courage C36 feel the same way about that?

[GT1]

DPs aren't for me because of the ridiclous technical restrictions, the politically motivated enviroment, and many of the tracks to name a few.

Having said that, I have it the Audi is bad for sports car racing before and I still think so. The R8 has won every race it has competed in this year and most last year and the year before and the year before and etc.

People DON'T like to see the same car win every race every year. But if it does, at least when the 956/962 was mopping the floor they made them avaliable to people on a wide range.

Private Audis? Give me a break. Audi UK, Champion, a large dealer of Audis in the US? Audi Japan for Team Goh? I would have liked to have thought that after four years of this "Private" effort we might have seen more than four "private" Audis at Le Mans.

Want some restrctions? You can test when they like it. You have to run on their tires. They like to take parts with them back to Germany.

People are welcomed to argue and respond, but I think the lack of any real interst in the ALMS and the extriondary low car count backs up a lot of what I am saying.

They came, they saw, they bored everyone to tears, and now they are still hear to mop up anyone silly enough to try and challenge them with about 1/2 the budget.

NOt that I have any strong opinons.

[Fieldgate]

Originally posted by iucrmh
I think that something that people always seem to miss is the fact that Audi have stuck around in Sports Cars after winning Le Mans. Look at the other manufacturers.
BMW, ran at Le Mans twice, won and left to F1. Toyota, ran at Le Mans twice, nearly won and left to F1. Porsche, ran three years at Le Mans with works GT1 cars, won, left and built the Cayenne. Nissan, ran three years at Le Mans, didn't win and left. Mercedes, two years and left (which they would have done if you'd won anyway - probably). Bentley, three year program to win at Le Mans, then left.

At least Audi have been around for 6 years and counting. However, they do seem to keep a firmer control over their "customer cars", than Porsche did with the phlethera(sp?) of 956/962 that were sold.

That's a bit unfair on Porsche (& I'm certainly not Porsche fan) - you have to admire them, they have single-handedly dominated the smallest class for the past gazillion seasons, with a car....they actually sell, which translates well if you haven't got a money-pockets big daddy factory behind you.

...and let's see wwhat they come out with soon. My money is on Porsche with a petrol LMP1 and Audi with a diesel.

[Nordic]

I don't think you can blame the Audi team for the woes of the ALMS and prototypes in general.

If your a works team such as Audi, you are going to do the best job you can, its then not your fault if other teams pack up and leave the series.

I too wish Audi would release more cars and maybe allow more freedom to the teams running them, but this is hardly going to encourage more teams running different cars.

Rather than point the finger at Audi, maybe it would be better to question why teams such as Jagaur & Toyota think it better PR to be thrashed on the F1 circuits than win in the ALMS/ELMS type of races.

[iucrmh]

Originally posted by Fieldgate
That's a bit unfair on Porsche (& I'm certainly not Porsche fan) - you have to admire them, they have single-handedly dominated the smallest class for the past gazillion seasons, with a car....they actually sell, which translates well if you haven't got a money-pockets big daddy factory behind you.

That's a fair point. I did wonder whether or not I should include Porsche in that list or not, but the introduction of the 911 GT1 did begin to spell the end of the GT1 class.

I do wish Audi would make more customer cars available however.

[JAG]

It is complete rubbish to say that LMP racing is too expensive for manufactuers to enter.

The top F1 teams such as Ferrari and Toyota are spending £200m a YEAR.

Audi have probabley spent around £60-£70m over 5 years, with all of the resultant success.

It is perfectly obvious why manufactuers have not been in LMP, or sportscar raing in general in recent years, F1.

In the late 90's manufactuers believed they could enter F1, and all of their marketing needs would be fullfilled. It is only now, 5 years later, that manufactuers such as Jaguar, Renault etc. are seriously considering pulling out. Without scoring regular podiums, F1 is simply not value for money anymore.

Plus of course the 2004 LMP1/2 regulations delayed any potential entrants (Mazda) from entering for a couple of years, at least.

It is only 2005/6 that we will see new manufactuer LMP projects as the new regs begin to settle down and the F1 bubble begins to burst.

Look how long it has took GTS to get its act in order, from the shambles the class was in, in 1999 to today. Even now we still have not seen the Maserati or Aston Martin!

As for G/A and the DPs, don't make me laugh. The series and the cars are a complete and utter joke. The fans are simply not interested, despite the number of cars.

The 'prototype' tag is stretching it a little as well. A 911 GT3-RSR has more wow factor. And when it comes down to it, that is what sportscar raicng is all about. If you want to watch close racing, watch touring cars or junior single seaters.

[JAG]

Originally posted by GT1


People are welcomed to argue and respond, but I think the lack of any real interst in the ALMS and the extriondary low car count backs up a lot of what I am saying.

The ALMS is in a terrible state isn't it. Record crowds and TV ratings. New cars on the horizon from Audi, Porsche, Maserati, Aston Martin, Mazda and Cadillac and 2 new Courage C65 LMP2 cars on there way to the ALMS before the end of the year.

[Spyder_Monkey]

Yes, Audi does not run the best privateer program ever. If they ran it more like Porsche did in Group C, sportscar racing might be better off. But we should be thankful they're here at all. Take away the Audis and then look at car count. Not so hot.

Sportscar racing, throughout its history, had had periods of ebb and flow, ups and downs, strikes and gutters, and whathaveyou. We're currently in a low point. Car counts (in America anyway) show that. But good things are coming: Porsche, Nissan, a new Audi, Aston Martin, more developed Lambos, a new Corvette, more developed 575s, better Saleens, 350Zs in GT(2), RX-8s...all have been rumored or confirmed. We're climbing out. Our derivitives are positive .

I wouldn't necessarily blame Jaguar, BMW, and Toyota either. They thought they could make somehting happen in F1, and they invested a tremendous sum of money on it. None have been there long enough to recoup that money yet. If anyone decides to drop F1, I will welcome them to sportscars. But I refuse to curse them for not being here.

[JAG]

We should also make a distinction between Europe and the US.

The Dale Jr Corvette C5-R accident highlighted, to me at least, the absolute dominance NASCAR has in the US. It is far more dominant than F1 is in Europe for instance.

[iucrmh]

Originally posted by JAG
The Dale Jr Corvette C5-R accident highlighted, to me at least, the absolute dominance NASCAR has in the US. It is far more dominant than F1 is in Europe for instance.

Now that really is frightening....

[jhansen]

Arguments like this make me laugh. If we didn't have the Audi R8's racing in the ALMS and the LMES then:

1. The car counts would be further reduced and thus people would complain.

2. There would be no factory produced (and partially backed) cars running in the LMP class, and thus, people would complain.

3. Drivers like Alan McNish, JJ Lehto, Johnny Herbert, Marco Werner, Ronaldo Capello, etc. would be racing elsewhere (or not at all), and more people would complain.

It's a no-win argument with people like this. Like it or not, factory involvement in the P1 class is low right now. But that could change at the drop of a hat. I'm sick of the "chicken little" attitude and I am going to remain positive. And a big THANK YOU to Audi North America, Audi Sport UK, and Audi Sport Japan!

[Porsche GT1]

i do like how audi is dedicated to sports car racing ( i think )

[skycafe]

What has been extraordinary about the Audis has been that the teams have gone at each other. The Audi UK cars and Champion had a heck of a battle at Sebring. At Le Mans we had Lehto go off with McNish, both on oil. They were that close after a couple of hours of racing, and neither giving an inch.

Dyson has said that his car and venue choice are based on beating the best (Audi), and one hopes (on bended knees) that others will follow.

While the 917/30 went largely unopposed in the 1973 Can Am, the 917/10 faced the dominating team of the Big Orange McLaren in 1972, and pushed them out. McLaren's M20 in 1972 was the biggest revision to their Can Am cars since inception, and still got steamrollered by one or two Porsche's (developed by Mark Donahue and Porsche, and prepared by Penske Racing). They did not come back for 1973. But, Porsche operated within the rules that existed, and Porsche is a very small car company compared to many others.

I wonder sometimes if the aero rules scared some of these teams away. Certainly Mercedes--would they have continued on for a while if they hadn't flipped the cars at Le Mans? Did the BMW flip at Road Atlanta also potentially scare them away from that itteration of sports cars? Is that one of the reasons the ACO is trying to revise the aero on the cars?

Yes, NASCAR so shadows other motorsport here in the US, that any bad moves by other sanctioning bodies will be at their great peril. The man in the street in Europe who follows no auto racing will know who won Le Mans, the man in the street here in the US is now unlikely to know the name of the Indy 500 winner. ALMS is doing well, but I can't imagine that if they don't get competion and depth in their classes that the situation may last. They are poised in the cat bird seat, since there isn't another major road racing series in the US anymore (don't tell me OWRS! I am not sure if I even get the cable channel their races may be covered on, and I live in a large metro area-I lament the loss of CART and the developement of IRL....)

So, if we have GForces with Chevy or Ford engines, YES! That will help even if Audi continues to dominate. If we have a four door Cadillac in GT, YES! A well run factory team is a joy to watch!

Random rant over.

edited so Ms. Bone will believe I actually did learn some English oh these many years ago.

[Mags]

Originally posted by Nordic
I don't think you can blame the Audi team for the woes of the ALMS and prototypes in general.

I don't either. They pulled thier 2nd team and still they win. You can't help it if you have the best car out there.

Look at the GT class this year.. finally it's a battle every weekend. And that isn't because of teams leaving. It's because teams have stepped up to the plate. The P1 and P2 classes are in a flux... it will be better next year, I'm sure.

[Mags]

Originally posted by JAG
As for G/A and the DPs, don't make me laugh. The series and the cars are a complete and utter joke. The fans are simply not interested, despite the number of cars.

Not true. At the races I have attended, the fans are very passionate and know thier stuff. I refuse to lump the DP's into a sad sack place. The drivers LOVE racing them!

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by JAG
A 911 GT3-RSR has more wow factor.

Not for everyone.